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GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO

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27 Jun 2017 09:29 #250492 by Michael Barnes
Replied by Michael Barnes on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO
Sold my NES Classic for $250 and didn't lose a wink of sleep over it.

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27 Jun 2017 09:32 #250493 by Black Barney
Replied by Black Barney on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO
Josh, you're sounding like an old man! I want bank tellers!!

I never liked the SNES and it's not because I'm a modern gamer, whatever that means. I just much preferred the NES and N64. At the time of the SNES, i was much more into PC gaming because of the games. SNES never had a killer app for me but man was F Zero close

Speaking of which does anyone think the new Spider-Man could be a real killer app for PS4? It looks pretty special

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27 Jun 2017 09:40 #250494 by Josh Look
Replied by Josh Look on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO

hotseatgames wrote:

Josh Look wrote: PS - Modern gaming and, more importantly, modern gamers, can fuck off.


I wouldn't expect such a rude statement from you. I don't think Matt was saying all old games suck. He was merely pointing out that games have come a long way, and there are many quality of life improvements common today that were either not possible back then or just weren't done.


No, I usually wouldn't put things into such blunt, crude terms, but I mean it: I hate most of what modern gaming has to offer and my interactions with modern gamers has soured me. Especially PC gamers. The fact that the words "PC master race" are ever uttered without any irony on a regular basis? Yeah, drop dead with that bullshit.

Retro gaming has become a viable subset of the industry and has already outlived anyone's expectations. Hell, the majority of exciting things happening in gaming (especially PC gaming) is indie stuff, which usually boils down to retro concepts with a dash of modernized flair and some training wheels put on it. You don't get that or the retro industry with retro games being inferior. Their place is more prominent, influential, important, and relevant than ever before. That Dark Souls and Bloodborne are as popular as they are speaks volumes.

Personally, I could care less about the quality of life "improvements" modern games feature. I don't care whatsoever about story in video games, I actually find it to be a detriment. I also prefer the brutal challenge they present. The Uncharted games were fun and all, but modern gaming, by and large, rewards time put in with story. No thanks.

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27 Jun 2017 10:12 #250495 by OldHippy
Replied by OldHippy on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO
I'm kind of with Matt on this. The NES Classic and now this one strike me as overpriced nostalgia. I was a SEGA boy myself so we had a SEGA Master System and then the Genesis and while I did play most of the Nintendo games because I would swap systems with buddies so we could play it all I just don't have the urge to have a copy of each system hanging around my house. I already have too much electronic shit sitting on the desk below the TV. I like some of these old games and don't even mind the difficulty but I can just play them on a modern console for like 3-4$ or so. I see no reason to buy this or the other one. More plastic in my house and at a pretty hefty cost at that. I like that Nintendo is doing this though and I hope it makes them a shitload of money that can then be re-purposed for development into new Switch games.

The most retro gaming I do is on a Coleco Vision emulator on my PC anyway. Jumpman Junior especially I still play somewhat regularly.
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27 Jun 2017 10:18 - 27 Jun 2017 10:23 #250496 by Josh Look
Replied by Josh Look on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO
I wasn't looking to start an argument or some tangent conversation. I really don't care enough to do that or engage anymore. Retro games and their difficulty isn't for everyone, just as boring story driven bullshit isn't for me. I'm just pointing out that the "general truth" comment is bullshit. It's much more subjective and you don't get to where we've gotten on nostalgia alone.

On that note, I'm going back into hiding.
Last edit: 27 Jun 2017 10:23 by Josh Look.
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27 Jun 2017 10:40 - 27 Jun 2017 10:52 #250499 by Matt Thrower
Replied by Matt Thrower on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO

Josh Look wrote: I'm just pointing out that the "general truth" comment is bullshit. It's much more subjective and you don't get to where we've gotten on nostalgia alone.


Was happy for everyone to plough their own furrow up until this point. It's not bullshit. Even you yourself have called up Dark Souls and Bloodborne as examples of the fact that gamers still enjoy challenging games. Sure they do and all power to them. And their tastes are well served: there's endless absurdly hard platformers, rhythm games and bullet hells for them to enjoy. And I am also tried of what you dub "story driven bullshit" although for me it's not so much an either/or equation. But that's a different issue.

The point is that there are still modern challenging games and I'll sit on the hill and say that modern challenging games > older challenging games. Dark Souls > Ghouls ’n Ghosts. Bloodborne > Super Castlevania IV. God Hand > Street Fighter II. I could go on, but you get the point. The modern games look better, play smoother, offer more variety, have online options, are more convenient to digest. By most measures, they're just better.

I'd also argue that it's objectively better to give players a choice of how much challenge they want. I loved Dark Souls, and its challenge was an integral part of that. But at the same time, locking players out who didn't want to deal with that does no-one any favours. They don't get to play, and the fan base looks like a bunch of elitist schmucks, chanting the brilliance of a game only they are awesome enough to comprehend.

So: to each their own. You might want to fuck modern games but plenty of us like it this way. I can get - totally - why you're soured on modern gamers and what they've done to the modern gaming experience. But that doesn't make the games themselves bad, and it's easy, indeed it's necessary, to walk away from the gamerbro crap and kick back against it.
Last edit: 27 Jun 2017 10:52 by Matt Thrower.

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27 Jun 2017 12:02 - 27 Jun 2017 12:03 #250501 by Erik Twice
Replied by Erik Twice on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO

MattDP wrote: Can't say I'm nuts about this. Most people are going to buy one, play for a couple of hours, realise that games in the SNES era were nuts hard and never turn it on again. Not to mention that above and beyond the difficulty, it's a general truth that modern games > older games and we all already have too many modern games.

And if you really feel the need to retrogame you can just play them all on an emulator anyway.

I think that's a bit unfair, Matt.

Most of the games on the list are fairly easy, even a novice ought not to have problems playing Super Mario World or A Link to the Past. The only games of notable difficult on the list are Super Ghouls N'n Ghosts and Contra III, perhaps Megaman X if one considers the era average to be too high.

I also think that you sell the quality short. Most of the games here are widely considered to be great, if not some of the greatest games ever made. I think one can make the case they aren't but that's fairly controversial territory.

MattDP wrote: The point is that there are still modern challenging games and I'll sit on the hill and say that modern challenging games > older challenging games. Dark Souls > Ghouls ’n Ghosts. Bloodborne > Super Castlevania IV. God Hand > Street Fighter II. I could go on, but you get the point. The modern games look better, play smoother, offer more variety, have online options, are more convenient to digest. By most measures, they're just better.

I don't think that's fair, those games you mention are not part of the same genre and are generally not that well regarded in the grand scheme of things (That is, God Hand is not considered even the best Capcom beat'em up).

Also, I agree with what Josh Look says. Yes, there might be some games in the genre that are better but they follow decades-old principles of design and hence are "modern games" only as far as their release date goes, they do not follow what we could narrowly call "moder design philosophies".

Consider this the annual Shmups System 11 25 shmups of all time poll:

##. Game Score '02 '03 '04 '05 '06 '07 '08 '09 '10 '12 '13 '14
01. Battle Garegga (ARC/SAT) 8.10 + + * + + + = = = = = +
02. Ketsui ~Kizuna Jigoku Tachi~ (ARC/360/PS3) 7.98 . * * * * * + + + + + +
03. Mushihimesama Futari / 1.5 / Black Label (ARC/360) 6.98 . . . . * * + ~ ~ - - -
04. DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou / Black Label (ARC/360/etc.) 6.96 * + + + + - - ~ - = = -
05. Armed Police Batrider (ARC) 5.65 * * + * - + = - - = + +
06. Crimzon Clover / World Ignition (PC/NESiCA) 5.504 . . . . . . . . * * * +
07. DoDonPachi (ARC/SAT/PSX) 5.498 - - - - - - - - - - - -
08. RayForce / Layer Section / etc. (ARC/PS2/SAT/etc.) 4.37 * - + + + + + * * * + =
09. Raiden Fighters Jet (ARC/360) 4.07 * * * * * * + - = - + +
10. Ikaruga (ARC/DC/GC/360) 3.98 - - - - - - - - - + + -
11. Mushihimesama / 1.5 (ARC/PS2/360/PC) 3.80 . . * + + - - + * = - -
12. Gradius V (PS2) 3.76 . . - - - - - - + * - +
13. Ibara (ARC/PS2) 3.13 . . . * * + + + + + + +
14. R-Type (ARC/PCE/PSX/etc.) 3.10 - - - - * + + - + + + =
15. Batsugun / Batsugun Special (ARC/SAT) 3.05 * + + * + - - + + - - -
16. ESPGaluda (ARC/PS2) 3.02 . * - - - - - - - - - +
17. Radiant Silvergun (ARC/SAT/360) 3.01 - - - - - - - - * - - -
18. Muchi Muchi Pork! (ARC/360) 2.91 . . . . . * * * - + - *
19. Eschatos (360/PC) 2.899 . . . . . . . . * * * *
20. Darius Gaiden (ARC/SAT/PS1/PS2/PC) 2.898 * * * * * * * * + * * =
21. Darius Burst: AC/EX/Chronicle Saviours (PC/etc.) 2.876 . . . . . . . . * * * *
22. Mars Matrix (ARC/DC) 2.875 - = - - - - - - - - + -
23. Strikers 1945 II (ARC/SAT/PSX/PS2) 2.81 - - - - * - - - - - + -
24. Gradius Gaiden (PSX/PSP) 2.77 = - - - - - * - * + * *
25. Dragon Blaze (ARC/PS2) 2.73 * * * * * * * * - - * *

There's a healthy mixture of older and more modern games but it's hard to argue Eschatos, Ketsui or Ibara represent modern design philosophies.
Last edit: 27 Jun 2017 12:03 by Erik Twice.

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27 Jun 2017 12:17 - 27 Jun 2017 12:21 #250502 by Erik Twice
Replied by Erik Twice on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO

JonJacob wrote: I'm kind of with Matt on this. The NES Classic and now this one strike me as overpriced nostalgia.

Being honest, I kind of dislike this argument.

I mean, I'm 26. I have never played these games before or as a kid (I had a PC). And I think they are good games! I just think it's more than possible to talk about them beyond "nostalgia" which is a negative all-encompasing view that prevents discussions about the games themselves.
Last edit: 27 Jun 2017 12:21 by Erik Twice.

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27 Jun 2017 12:28 - 27 Jun 2017 12:29 #250503 by OldHippy
Replied by OldHippy on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO

Erik Twice wrote: Being honest, I kind of dislike this argument.

I mean, I'm 26. I have never played these games before or as a kid (I had a PC). And I think they are good games! I just think it's more than possible to talk about them beyond "nostalgia" which is a negative all-encompasing view that prevents discussions about the games themselves.


Fair enough... but I really, really don't see what I said as an 'argument', it's just a personal opinion on whether or not it's worth my money. 'Argument' is just not how I'm thinking about it. I'm willing to talk about the games themselves... that's fine.. but the package as a totality is what strikes me as nostalgia - which is why I mentioned the games qualities separately. To be clear though... nostalgia is not a negative. The word and concept are so much deeper than that and it certainly can be a good thing in certain circumstances.

Still though, as I said, I hope it does well for them.
Last edit: 27 Jun 2017 12:29 by OldHippy.

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27 Jun 2017 12:35 #250505 by jeb
Replied by jeb on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO

Erik Twice wrote:

JonJacob wrote: I'm kind of with Matt on this. The NES Classic and now this one strike me as overpriced nostalgia.

Being honest, I kind of dislike this argument.

I mean, I'm 26. I have never played these games before or as a kid (I had a PC). And I think they are good games! I just think it's more than possible to talk about them beyond "nostalgia" which is a negative all-encompasing view that prevents discussions about the games themselves.

I see this too. I think its a function of how serious a gamer you are. If video games are a thing you bust out on a boring weekend when it rains or maybe something you do on the commute--these things make no sense. The games are old and have been duplicated many times over in the intervening years.

If video games are your go-to hobby, these things look amazing. THAT these games have been duplicated again and again are testament to their quality. Popular twitch streamers use FFII (ne FFIV) for their new subscriber music, Metroidvania enthusiasts know from whence their genre came and agree Super Metroid is stellar. Anyone that gives a shit about what chipset a shmups or fighting game originally shipped on can appreciate what's captured in this kind of machine.

That I can plug it in my minivan and connect to my kids via this nostalgic bridge while crossing the Central Valley is all the more a selling point.
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27 Jun 2017 15:20 #250512 by SebastianBludd
Replied by SebastianBludd on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO
The biggest selling points for this are: Star Fox 2 (I've never played the original but, c'mon, how often does an unreleased sequel for a beloved game - of this vintage, no less - get an official release?), the ability to play it in HD on a TV, and the hardware.

I'd wager that retro gaming enthusiasts have been emulating console games for a long time now (I was emulating NES games in the late 90's on my Dell P200 MMX), but this hardware gives them the chance to play them the way they were meant to be experienced. It's the difference between listening to a lossy MP3 of a vintage album on an iPod versus shelling out for a turntable and a vinyl copy of the album.

Whether or not the hardware and the experience is worth it to you is a personal decision, but claiming that all modern games are improvements on/better than all older games is incorrect.

Other than HD support, the NES and SNES Classics don't have any advantage over traditional emulation, and until they figure out something more imaginative than nostalgic appeals I will remain uninterested. For instance, level editors for some of the games (can you imagine being able to play new custom Castlevania or Mega Man levels?) or yearly roster updates for Tecmo Super Bowl might sway those who normally would have just kept playing on emulators.

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28 Jun 2017 07:57 #250532 by Erik Twice
Replied by Erik Twice on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO
@Jeb

For me it's just that, I think they are good games. They could have been made ten years ago o yesterday but that's not a reason for me to play or not to play them,you know? In a sense what I don't like is the old/new dychomotomy, I don't think you need to be a retrogamer to enjoy old games just like I don't need to be a movie buff to like some older films.

JonJacob wrote: Fair enough... but I really, really don't see what I said as an 'argument', it's just a personal opinion on whether or not it's worth my money. 'Argument' is just not how I'm thinking about it. I'm willing to talk about the games themselves... that's fine.. but the package as a totality is what strikes me as nostalgia - which is why I mentioned the games qualities separately.

No, you are right, that maks a lot of sense. I think I jumped the gun a bit, sorry JonJacob.
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28 Jun 2017 08:03 #250533 by JEM
Replied by JEM on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO

SebastianBludd wrote: but this hardware gives them the chance to play them the way they were meant to be experienced. It's the difference between listening to a lossy MP3 of a vintage album on an iPod versus shelling out for a turntable and a vinyl copy of the album.


The games were meant to be played in standard definition on CRT screens, so I don't see how this assertion can be correct.

This did bring back memories for me. Secret of Mana was my favourite game on the SNES. I even bought an adapter and the USA cart version of the game, after reading all about it in Super Play magazine. It kind of spoiled me on every JRPG since, except Chrono Trigger.

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28 Jun 2017 09:15 #250539 by SebastianBludd
Replied by SebastianBludd on topic GODDAMN IT, NINTENDO

JEM wrote:

SebastianBludd wrote: but this hardware gives them the chance to play them the way they were meant to be experienced. It's the difference between listening to a lossy MP3 of a vintage album on an iPod versus shelling out for a turntable and a vinyl copy of the album.


The games were meant to be played in standard definition on CRT screens, so I don't see how this assertion can be correct..


They were made to be played on standard def CRT's because that's what everyone owned, it's not like they eschewed HD TV's in adherence to some low-fi aesthetic. When I said "meant to be played" I was referring to the social aspect of NES/SNES gaming where 2-3 people would be huddled around a TV rather than emulating the games on a computer, so my vinyl analogy probably wasn't the best.
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