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Ogre...Kickstarter...you in?

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12 Apr 2012 19:47 #122718 by ehanuise

wadenels wrote: I don't like it. I'm starting to notice what Barnes was writing about earlier: there's no risk for the publisher when they use Kickstarter. That risk, when you've put your money on the line, is what drives a quality execution. I've Kickstarted seven games, and received three of them. One of the three has some of the worst editing and proofreading I've ever seen. Two of the three are beginning to appear to have been poorly playtested. There are forum posts and articles laying out dominant strategies. Basically they have their own version of the Halifax Hammer. Now the Halifax Hammer is a pretty obvious indication that Kickstarter games aren't the only ones suffering from issues like this, but so far the poor playtesting hit percentage on the games I've received through Kickstarter is pretty damn high.


Note that there's a slight contradiction here :) a reputable publisher using kickstarter will (hopefully) put on the market a well published (proofread, tested, ...) product.

But yup, I'm in agreement with "The Barnes" : proper, well established publishers should not have to use KS.
But I can understand the appeal of the huge exposure the site brings - not only is it free upfront money but it's also a lot of free publicity. For now.

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12 Apr 2012 19:54 #122721 by TheDukester

wadenels wrote: SJG and Queen games using Kickstarter: Not awesome.

I just don't buy this at all. Frankly, most of the complaints I've seen here seem to either be a rush to establish gamer cred or else just anti-Kickstarter bandwagon-jumping.

Why shouldn't established companies be testing the waters at Kickstarter? I've yet to see a single reason that holds up under even the slightest scrutiny. In fact, if I were to back a KS project, I'd rather back an established company. It might be late, but at least I know SJG will eventually ship this game and it will have been through multiple rounds of editing and proofreading.

And, yes, I'll be backing this, to answer the thread's original question. There's certainly a "nostalgia tax" being added, but I've decided to live with that. Ogre was the first game I ever bought with my own money, so hell with it: bring on the tax. I just wish the "name an Ogre" wasn't already sold out. Because, seriously, "The DUKE" would have been an awesome Ogre name.

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12 Apr 2012 19:57 - 12 Apr 2012 19:58 #122723 by TheDukester

ehanuise wrote: ... proper, well established publishers should not have to use KS.

This is such horseshit.

Those publishers are also in business. And businesses — successful ones, anyway — are always on the lookout for new revenue streams and opportunities to reach new and/or broader audiences. Kickstarter is nothing more than a (potential) tool to make that happen. "Proper" has absolutely fuck-all to do with anything.
Last edit: 12 Apr 2012 19:58 by TheDukester.

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12 Apr 2012 20:01 - 12 Apr 2012 20:48 #122724 by Dogmatix

TheDukester wrote:

wadenels wrote: SJG and Queen games using Kickstarter: Not awesome.

Why shouldn't established companies be testing the waters at Kickstarter? I've yet to see a single reason that holds up under even the slightest scrutiny.


I've backed more than a half-dozen boardgame projects and only one *hasn't* been a previously established designer or company (the previously mentioned Gunship: First Strike). I have no desire whatsoever to deal with folks who have never done this before because Kickstarter enables any ol' design to be published (speaking of which, when *is* Milch und Gherkin going to be produced?) with little risk from backlash if the game sucks. So what if you can't get your next game published? Chances are good that the newb designer put his *best* game up for Kickstarting first; if THAT one sucks, the rest aren't going to be worth the design and production effort anyway.

Agents of SMERSH is, in my opinion, a bit of a gamble, too--and if the result is half-assed because Jason doesn't know what he's doing on the production side [there's precisely zero question that paragraph games can collapse completely if the editing/proofing sucks], it will be the last boardgame project I back from anyone BUT a person or company that actually has a *production* history to go with some design credibility.

(If SMERSH has production problems, I'd be happy to back a project--at the highest reward levels--to fly Zev in to wherever Jason lives so he can say "I TOLD YOU I could have done this easier, faster, and better if only you brought your game to Z-Man..." ;-) )
Last edit: 12 Apr 2012 20:48 by Dogmatix.

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12 Apr 2012 20:31 #122725 by Disgustipater

Dogmatix wrote: The only concern I would have is if they only run the 3,000 copies they were talking about and the bulk of them get bought through kickstarter.

My initial impression was that they are doing the 3000 copies plus whatever copies Kickstarter generates, as a way to get the game to more people. However I realize now that it isn't really stated either way.

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12 Apr 2012 20:43 - 12 Apr 2012 20:44 #122727 by wadenels

TheDukester wrote: Why shouldn't established companies be testing the waters at Kickstarter? I've yet to see a single reason that holds up under even the slightest scrutiny. In fact, if I were to back a KS project, I'd rather back an established company. It might be late, but at least I know SJG will eventually ship this game and it will have been through multiple rounds of editing and proofreading.


Because when an established company switches from a model that includes such things as:
  • Established distribution chain
  • Advance or review copies
  • A reliable release date
  • Trade shows
  • A product that is complete from a design standpoint

to:
  • Money up front

I think there's a certain degree of integrity loss there. SJG is asking people to pony up a triple-digit figure for a game that exists in an SJG-controlled bubble that doesn't lend any scrutiny to the game itself. This is not the same thing as pre-order. Yes the game will be fed through more traditional distribution channels, but right now the Kickstarter campaign is a (successful) money grab for a product that nobody outside SJG has even seen in person.

I agree that I'd trust my Kickstarter money more to an established company than some guy's idea of the next great board game, but at the same time I have to ask myself why a company with established presence and products decided to ask for money up front this time.

TheDukester wrote: Those publishers are also in business. And businesses — successful ones, anyway — are always on the lookout for new revenue streams and opportunities to reach new and/or broader audiences. Kickstarter is nothing more than a (potential) tool to make that happen. "Proper" has absolutely fuck-all to do with anything.


Absolutely. And if a company does establish a reputation for quality products delivered through Kickstarter similar to what I expect from GMT with their P500, then I'll treat their Kickstarter products accordingly. A $100 version of Ogre might even be the right type of product for SJG to establish their reputation as a quality vendor through Kickstarter. But I'm not going to drop $100 to find out.
Last edit: 12 Apr 2012 20:44 by wadenels.
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12 Apr 2012 20:44 #122728 by VonTush
This looks to be a very smart KS campaign. It appears a lot of cost analysis has gone into it and that excites me. My opinion is that 3k is the base line and as the stretch goals are achieved then that ups the print run, therefore lowers the production cost and in turn that lower cost is turned back around and invested into the game for an overall better product instead of padding SJ's pockets.

For example, at $100k the blueprint poster is included in the game. So once it reaches that level the overall order is increased, production costs go down, that savings is turned into a poster to include with the game.

This is how an established company can use KS to produce an even better product and why I personally have no issues with a large company using it to launch an item.

Also, it looks like the second stretch goal is for KS supporters only. So it appears there will be KS only material. The next one appears to be the $140k level.
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12 Apr 2012 20:47 #122729 by Disgustipater
So which one of you said this over on BGG?

How stupid are you people? Space Hulk (third edition) was only $100 when it came out, and it had real minis. And you're just going to lend this asshole the money for free?

Kickstarter is the death of established publishers' integrity.

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12 Apr 2012 20:51 #122730 by Michael Barnes
If I jimmy up some counter sheets and post a rulebook online, maybe take out an ad or two, would you give me $20,000 to print Milch und Gherkin?

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12 Apr 2012 20:57 #122732 by Dogmatix

Michael Barnes wrote: If I jimmy up some counter sheets and post a rulebook online, maybe take out an ad or two, would you give me $20,000 to print Milch und Gherkin?


The laugh alone is worth $20 to me. All you need is 999 more people to react that way and you're on your way. The scary part is, I do also believe that, with the proper shilling, you could easily do hit that mark. Shit like that (or "make Monkey Auto Races the #1 ranked game on BGG!") can easily take on a life its own and snowball...

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12 Apr 2012 20:57 - 12 Apr 2012 20:58 #122733 by Michael Barnes
Asking for money UP FRONT from customers to buy a VAPORWARE product is NOT how professional business is conducted. A professional business doesn't ask for money- and take it- to "see" if doing something is viable. They take a risk, market, and hopefully provide a desirable product. I completely agree that business integrity DOES NOT include effectively asking the customer to foot the bill in advance for a product, and claiming that "backing" a project is in any way an investment is borderline fraud.

There are, believe it or not, certain kinds of projects where Kickstarter makes sense. But consumer products like this made by professional publishers are NOT those projects.

I completely agree with Wadenels.

People need to quit getting excited about buying a new board game and start thinking about what they're actually doing by buying these Kickstarter projects in advance of them being sourced, manufactured, or even possibly fully developed.
Last edit: 12 Apr 2012 20:58 by Michael Barnes.
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12 Apr 2012 20:58 #122734 by VonTush

Michael Barnes wrote: If I jimmy up some counter sheets and post a rulebook online, maybe take out an ad or two, would you give me $20,000 to print Milch und Gherkin?


No. I haven't backed a KS product yet and I'm fairly certain that Milch und Gherkin wouldn't be the first one. Ogre may have that honer.

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12 Apr 2012 23:32 #122743 by Sagrilarus

Michael Barnes wrote: People need to quit getting excited about buying a new board game and start thinking about what they're actually doing by buying these Kickstarter projects in advance of them being sourced, manufactured, or even possibly fully developed.


Yeah, but until that happens Kickstarter is the land of stupid money. It doesn't surprise me to see big publishers giving it the once over. At a minimum you get exposure.

S.

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12 Apr 2012 23:36 #122745 by Mr Skeletor
Kickstarter - proving there is a sucker born every target goal.
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13 Apr 2012 04:35 #122758 by wolvendancer

Michael Barnes wrote: I was ready to jump, but then I remembered my distate for Kickstarter...professionally run, operated, and managed businesses DO NOT "crowd source" their funding. They put money on the line and if they deliver a quality, saleable product then they make a profit. By putting your money up front, there's no real incentive for them to give you value for your money. Not like SJ has done that in years anyway.


This is, not to put too fine a point on it, complete horseshit.

Kickstarter is an amazing opportunity for artists and fans to take the labyrinthine, self-defeating, often corrupt 'publication and funding' bits out of the production of the things we love. I've backed five projects so far. In every single instance, the project I helped fund would not have been possible in a 'standard' creator environment. First bit of money was a band LP by a few acquaintances of mine who, despite being very talented, didn't have the money for studio time. Second, an independent film, which is in post- and looks great. And three video games, none of which would have been created in the current 'iPad game or blockbuster' video game environment.

Do all projects deserve funding? Of course not. Do people need to careful consider which projects are likely to move to completion (Kickstarter itself already has a vetting process)? Absolutely. Are there going to be failures? Sure, there will be money wasted, but hell, I waste money every year on ubstandard games movies etc, and I'm fairly stringent in my selection process (try to play beforehand, read multiple reviews, etc). At least this way I'm directly funding motivated artists. It's motivating, it's effective economics, and it's pure awesomesauce.

Finally, just because a business doesn't 100% fund their own projects does not mean, as you claim, that they have 'nothing on the line'. Reputation has always mattered in business, and that's true now more than ever. What do you think happens to Brian Fargo and his company if they don't produce a stellar Wasteland 2, after he's spent the last month pissing off publishers very publically? Something this side of insolvency? What about Hairebrained Schemes LLC and Shadowrun (neither company, by the way, able to fund either project)? Do think, perhaps, that (especially as Kickstarters tend to be much more proactive and educated about their projects) certain companies will accrue positive reputations, some less so, and if their only sources of funding comes directly from public will, that might affect the future of their companies? Existential threats sound like 'having something to lose' to me.

All this, and we haven't even spoken about the most interesting crowd-funded projects: projects that are charitable or human interest. The anti-Kickstarter crap on here and other geek forums is astounding.

TL/DR: Every issue listed in this thread re: Kickstarter is present in normal commerce as well. KS allows consumers to directly fund artists, and projects, they are excited by, projects that in many cases would never see the light of day otherwise. Use your brain, practice due diligence, then get involved.

Me? I have no intention of funding SJG, because the project doesn't meet my personal criteria. But if other people want their Ogre, all the power to them. Kickstart away, brothers.
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