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Leder games Oath chatter

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15 Jan 2020 11:13 #306192 by JoelCFC25
Replied by JoelCFC25 on topic Leder games Oath chatter
I tried subscribing to this game entry on BGG and lasted all of 6 hours before I had to unsub. I'm guessing this isn't unique to Oath and probably afflicts most/all Kickstarters, but the freakish mix of panic, entitlement, resentment, and hype is really something to behold.

The clearly-a-placeholder-hasn't-been-designed-yet map art is too white! I demand fully fleshed out solo and 2P rules for something clearly pitched as primarily a 3-6P game! It's too expensive!

Gamers are so exhausting. Cole and his partners are doing god's work maintaining an unflappable calm in the face of all that. I can only imagine what their Slack looks like.
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15 Jan 2020 11:35 #306201 by Not Sure
Replied by Not Sure on topic Leder games Oath chatter
Yeah, I had to unsubscribe from Root at some point because of the same bullshit.

People get really bent up over trivial shit that just a few years ago was "open the damn box and find out" rather than this pre-print wailing and gnashing of teeth.

To me the biggest sinners in this mess are the solo gamers. Loud and alone, but always saying "will it play solo?" Seriously, how about you just let people design the game for the right number of people? Thousands of titles every year, and still a constant hum of "will this game of social interaction and negotiations play solo?".

I'm more of the "quietly take my money elsewhere" rather than "scream on the internet" kind, but I definitely appreciate the no tricks aspect that Leder in general and Cole's projects have done thus far. They must have the patience of saints to put up with the trash grinder of BGG.
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15 Jan 2020 11:37 #306203 by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic Leder games Oath chatter
It is fucking terrible.

The kickstarter model is just a preorder store for boardgames, but the shame of it is that it still has all the language around this being a collaborative activity to avoid liability. I think that exacerbates "backers" and how shitty they are.
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15 Jan 2020 11:41 #306206 by Not Sure
Replied by Not Sure on topic Leder games Oath chatter

mc wrote: It's a good approach, and one I appreciate.

But it would cost me 140US with the shipping - they think - so, that made the choice easy for me.


Don't worry buddy, you can play my copy on Vassal.

I only buy a couple of games a year now, so the cost (thankfully) wasn't really a factor. With the Root expansion shipping, this is the only thing I have on the slate for the immediate future.

(slightly eyeing the Pax Ren reprint, but unless there's a significant change, I have the 1st ed+expansion+promos already)
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15 Jan 2020 11:43 #306207 by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic Leder games Oath chatter
I'll probably go with the Ren reprint, I only have the base game and I think it's the best Pax. I just hope the preorder isn't a clusterfuck and more libertarian nonsense doesn't make its way into the game instead of the rulebook. I know Phil likes to update his games. It'll be one of those "hold onto your other copy until you get the finished copy" ones.
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15 Jan 2020 12:32 #306213 by hotseatgames

JoelCFC25 wrote: Gamers are so exhausting.


This should be on a shirt.
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15 Jan 2020 14:13 #306214 by Msample
Replied by Msample on topic Leder games Oath chatter

Not Sure wrote: Yeah, I had to unsubscribe from Root at some point because of the same bullshit.

People get really bent up over trivial shit that just a few years ago was "open the damn box and find out" rather than this pre-print wailing and gnashing of teeth.

To me the biggest sinners in this mess are the solo gamers. Loud and alone, but always saying "will it play solo?" Seriously, how about you just let people design the game for the right number of people? Thousands of titles every year, and still a constant hum of "will this game of social interaction and negotiations play solo?".

I'm more of the "quietly take my money elsewhere" rather than "scream on the internet" kind, but I definitely appreciate the no tricks aspect that Leder in general and Cole's projects have done thus far. They must have the patience of saints to put up with the trash grinder of BGG.


OMG the breathless daily ROOT updates drove me nuts. I don’t need a blow by blow account of the minutiae involved, just send me the fucking game. I un subbed from the updates after a week of that shit.
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15 Jan 2020 17:58 #306224 by thegiantbrain
Yeah I've been flabbergasted at the waling and gnashing of teeth. People whining about lack of diagrams in the clearly early stages rulebook, lack of art on the clearly prototype map and the solo gamers are just chomping at the bit. I honestly don't fully get solo boardgaming, though I understand there are some great ones. If I want to play a game by myself I go and turn my computer on.
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15 Jan 2020 19:06 #306228 by Jackwraith
Replied by Jackwraith on topic Leder games Oath chatter

thegiantbrain wrote: If I want to play a game by myself I go and turn my computer on.


And this is the key right here. That should be the way that solo gaming is done, for the most part. There are some people that don't have options, since there aren't many or any other players in their respective areas. But there's this growing number of people who basically prefer to not interact with others which, to me, is the main purpose of board gaming. It's a social activity. There is something to be gained by interacting with others, even if it means you don't always get to play the things you really want to play and exactly how you want them.
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16 Jan 2020 06:38 #306248 by mc
Replied by mc on topic Leder games Oath chatter

Not Sure wrote:

mc wrote: It's a good approach, and one I appreciate.

But it would cost me 140US with the shipping - they think - so, that made the choice easy for me.


Don't worry buddy, you can play my copy on Vassal.


Haha. Thanks mate I will look forward to it.

I'm not complaining about any of it, it is what it is and that's fine. At least the 140 would have been an honest estimate and also not full of crap I wouldn't want like plenty of other ks nonsense.

I also unsubbed in the last week sometime, it was worse than my work inbox after a week off every damn morning. And the game doesn't ship for a year, I think. A year!

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16 Jan 2020 09:46 #306256 by Shellhead
Replied by Shellhead on topic Leder games Oath chatter
Maybe Oath would ship in six months if Cole wasn't spamming out so many updates.
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20 Jan 2020 13:52 - 20 Jan 2020 14:05 #306402 by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic Leder games Oath chatter
So I've had a run of days where I can have streams on in the background while I work, so I've been watching a few plays of this game (ugh man some streamers need some work). An undersold thing in the design, because it's not very sexy, is the closed economy element of the game. So if you control cards you can draw income from them at the beginning of the turn. Since the action economy is absurdly tight, again like most of Cole's games, making money without actions is crucial.

But the money comes from a series of 6 stacks at the side of the board representing different factions in the realm---and a stack only gets money when money goes into it by using cards of that suit for armies or special actions. So the stream I watched yesterday had a Beast suit which was all over the board and in people's "hands" but had very little income going into it. What little income that was going into it was silently being taken and redirected (spent) toward other suits. It was crippling people at the table but since it was a pretty light stream there wasn't too much comment on it. Sufficed to say the winner and another player were thinking a lot deeper about the in/out closed economic system (both of the space cats/peace turtles twilight imperium podcasters) but weren't saying much about what they were doing.

So there's definitely going to be an element of money control, which makes a lot of sense since Cole's last two games were ultra tight John Company and Pax Pamir. The Royal Favor card really leans into this too. It doesn't look powerful but it seems like it could be absolutely brutal to starve people of income.

I enthusiastically await NotSure taking all the money and then putting his boot on every player on the board's throat.
Last edit: 20 Jan 2020 14:05 by Gary Sax.
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20 Jan 2020 18:00 #306412 by Not Sure
Replied by Not Sure on topic Leder games Oath chatter

Gary Sax wrote: I enthusiastically await NotSure taking all the money and then putting his boot on every player on the board's throat.


Hahaha. I don't know where you get these notions from.
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20 Jan 2020 18:29 - 20 Jan 2020 18:52 #306413 by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic Leder games Oath chatter
Sorry to bang on and on about this game. I just watched half of a playthrough of a "popular oath" game (there are 4 possible game types) and it is vastly, vastly different than the supremacy (mostly war) games they've been playing in all the other tests. It's way more about economy and building up areas, and in particular trying to move money away from the piles that the chancellor specializes in into other piles. It feels VERY Wehrle designed. The more I see of this game the fucking weirder it seems and the more I don't think most people should back it, but I'm more and more into it.

Here's a popular oath game w/players who after the teach and first (looooong) turn aren't fumble dicking around so bad (esp. the narrator/host who explains his moves).

www.twitch.tv/videos/538035725
Last edit: 20 Jan 2020 18:52 by Gary Sax.
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26 Jan 2020 09:00 - 26 Jan 2020 10:02 #306622 by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic Leder games Oath chatter
Had a stream of a game of this on in the background at work on Friday... the game is obviously in development but my main critique of it so far, in its non-supremacy versions mostly, is that it seems to be a game that wants to be about site/cohort card power combos but you have to make a big effort to get them. In that way, it's like a Pax game---you get a good combo, you leverage it to the hilt, then you (usually) win or lose. There generally isn't time to to build multiple combos because the games are short. But imagine you have to fish for cards using actions instead of buy them off a tableau like in Pax.

Everything may be fine, but it feels like in the development version there's one of three problems: a) the game doesn't populate enough cards into the game to generate combos for multiple players before it essentially shuts the door with a mechanic, b) drawing cards is too big an effort for individual player turns bc it's a short game, meaning that whoever gets there first with a usable combo gets the win, or c) players are way undervaluing card draws and slotting them into site slots in these stream games (the thematic equivalent of development/political development at locations). They're all fixable, but c) is just a meta problem. I wonder if it isn't c). A player in the game I was watching drew a couple good synergies at a prosperous location (that can slot 3 cards) and invaded the spot militarily. Perhaps everyone should have been trying to develop their sites more rather than do a bunch of extraneous actions and fighting.

Anyway, I'm probably about done watching streams of this until it's done and in my hands, but there's definitely something there and it absolutely has the Wehrle stamp on it designwise (ACTION AND MONEY STARVED). Hard to tell if the legacy thing actually is important or not in changing the long-term character of games---it's definitely a game you'd have to play a good amount (something Cole has said) to really experience the shift in the meta over multiple games.
Last edit: 26 Jan 2020 10:02 by Gary Sax.
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