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Talk about Eurogames here.
Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
22 Nov 2019 11:52 #304453
by Not Sure
Replied by Not Sure on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
Jack's got a point. When the editor-in-chief says "this top-selling game isn't worth discussing", it puts bit of a wet blanket on a forum.
Wasn't this site giving a copy away in a facebook bundle last week or so?
Just sayin.
Wasn't this site giving a copy away in a facebook bundle last week or so?
Just sayin.
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22 Nov 2019 12:05 #304455
by Vysetron
Replied by Vysetron on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
This is definitely worth talking about. The fact that SM mentioned that changes would be coming before the game was even in people's hands is beyond the pale. They -knew- it didn't work as printed, but money had to be made so it was dropped prematurely.
I don't take issue with balance changes. No plan survives first contact with the enemy, and no competitive game is ever perfectly balanced before release. These changes don't even seem that awful, all things considered. It's the fact that this was called out before release yet nothing was done until now that makes them particularly offputting.
I don't take issue with balance changes. No plan survives first contact with the enemy, and no competitive game is ever perfectly balanced before release. These changes don't even seem that awful, all things considered. It's the fact that this was called out before release yet nothing was done until now that makes them particularly offputting.
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22 Nov 2019 12:13 #304456
by Shellhead
Cthulhu Wars and Root are both asymmetrical games where some factions are more effective than others. But because both games are multi-player games with plenty of player interaction, experienced players can re-balance the game due to awareness of the differences between factions. From what I have heard, Tapestry has minimal player interaction, so the players themselves cannot re-balance the imbalance between factions.
Replied by Shellhead on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
jpat wrote: I'm also not defending the balance tweaks--like I said, didn't even know about the game--but was there similar hand-wringing about similar blunt-force balancing in, say, Cthulhu Wars? Or are we just picking on this one?
Cthulhu Wars and Root are both asymmetrical games where some factions are more effective than others. But because both games are multi-player games with plenty of player interaction, experienced players can re-balance the game due to awareness of the differences between factions. From what I have heard, Tapestry has minimal player interaction, so the players themselves cannot re-balance the imbalance between factions.
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22 Nov 2019 12:55 #304457
by Shellhead
I think that it's worth discussing why Tapestry is a top-selling game when it appears to be just another low-interaction point salad exercise with a work-like theme. Is it a top seller because the components are a step up from the usual point salad? Or is it a top seller because a few key reviewers that post at BGG have taken control of the hobby? Or is it a top seller because Scythe had such neat artwork?
Replied by Shellhead on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
Not Sure wrote: Jack's got a point. When the editor-in-chief says "this top-selling game isn't worth discussing", it puts bit of a wet blanket on a forum.
I think that it's worth discussing why Tapestry is a top-selling game when it appears to be just another low-interaction point salad exercise with a work-like theme. Is it a top seller because the components are a step up from the usual point salad? Or is it a top seller because a few key reviewers that post at BGG have taken control of the hobby? Or is it a top seller because Scythe had such neat artwork?
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22 Nov 2019 12:58 #304458
by ubarose
Michael isn't the editor-in-chief of TWBG.
TWBG is not affiliated with the contests or their sponsors.
Michael's cranky-pants comment has been noted and dismissed due to it's crankiness.
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I think Tapestry is worth discussing. I think Stonemaier Games in general is worth discussing, especially in light of Elizabeth's Hargrave's presentation at Tabletop Network a few days back. She presented a bunch of statistics on women board gamers' preferences. I feel like Stonemaier when through her list and tried to tick all the boxes with Tapestry - woman on the cover, pastel palette, no conflict... I think they are positioning themselves to go after the untapped women board gamer market. It will be interesting to watch.
I don't know anything about Tapestry's lazy-ass design/development issues.
Replied by ubarose on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
Not Sure wrote: Jack's got a point. When the editor-in-chief says "this top-selling game isn't worth discussing", it puts bit of a wet blanket on a forum.
Wasn't this site giving a copy away in a facebook bundle last week or so?
Just sayin.
Michael isn't the editor-in-chief of TWBG.
TWBG is not affiliated with the contests or their sponsors.
Michael's cranky-pants comment has been noted and dismissed due to it's crankiness.
*********************************************************************
I think Tapestry is worth discussing. I think Stonemaier Games in general is worth discussing, especially in light of Elizabeth's Hargrave's presentation at Tabletop Network a few days back. She presented a bunch of statistics on women board gamers' preferences. I feel like Stonemaier when through her list and tried to tick all the boxes with Tapestry - woman on the cover, pastel palette, no conflict... I think they are positioning themselves to go after the untapped women board gamer market. It will be interesting to watch.
I don't know anything about Tapestry's lazy-ass design/development issues.
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22 Nov 2019 13:01 #304459
by ubarose
I think it is a top-selling game because it came on the heels of Wingspan. (see my comment above about my belief that Stonemaier Games is going after the untapped women board gamers market)
Replied by ubarose on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
Shellhead wrote:
I think that it's worth discussing why Tapestry is a top-selling game when it appears to be just another low-interaction point salad exercise with a work-like theme. Is it a top seller because the components are a step up from the usual point salad? Or is it a top seller because a few key reviewers that post at BGG have taken control of the hobby? Or is it a top seller because Scythe had such neat artwork?
I think it is a top-selling game because it came on the heels of Wingspan. (see my comment above about my belief that Stonemaier Games is going after the untapped women board gamers market)
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22 Nov 2019 13:55 - 22 Nov 2019 13:55 #304460
by Shellhead
That's an interesting angle that I hadn't previously considered. I wonder if anybody else has done some serious research into what women board gamers might like. Maybe they don't want games with conflict. Do they want games with minimal interaction?
Replied by Shellhead on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
ubarose wrote: I think it is a top-selling game because it came on the heels of Wingspan. (see my comment above about my belief that Stonemaier Games is going after the untapped women board gamers market)
That's an interesting angle that I hadn't previously considered. I wonder if anybody else has done some serious research into what women board gamers might like. Maybe they don't want games with conflict. Do they want games with minimal interaction?
Last edit: 22 Nov 2019 13:55 by Shellhead.
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22 Nov 2019 14:05 #304461
by hotseatgames
Replied by hotseatgames on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
My uneducated guess is that women want to play the same stuff as anyone else, but get turned off at artwork and marketing aimed at 13 year old boys with 30 year old boys' wallets.
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22 Nov 2019 15:17 - 22 Nov 2019 16:00 #304463
by charlest
Huh? This is not true. These balance tweaks are a result of over 3,000 logged plays in a google sheet from people playing after they've received their copies.
Also, unrelated to quoted post, calling this lazy ass design is pretty reductive considering Jamey playtests his games more than the vast majority of publishers. I believe Tapestry had over 300 playtests.
Finally, I sarcastically smirk a bit at comments saying this is just another lame ass track/spreadsheet game. It probably would feel that way to me if I played it, but do people here not think those playing these types of games would not feel the same way about the different genres of games they don't like?
To act like our opinions are facts and that we need to be looking for some hidden reason to validate its success as well as our opinion feels ignorant to me.
Replied by charlest on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
Vysetron wrote: This is definitely worth talking about. The fact that SM mentioned that changes would be coming before the game was even in people's hands is beyond the pale. They -knew- it didn't work as printed, but money had to be made so it was dropped prematurely.
I don't take issue with balance changes. No plan survives first contact with the enemy, and no competitive game is ever perfectly balanced before release. These changes don't even seem that awful, all things considered. It's the fact that this was called out before release yet nothing was done until now that makes them particularly offputting.
Huh? This is not true. These balance tweaks are a result of over 3,000 logged plays in a google sheet from people playing after they've received their copies.
Also, unrelated to quoted post, calling this lazy ass design is pretty reductive considering Jamey playtests his games more than the vast majority of publishers. I believe Tapestry had over 300 playtests.
Finally, I sarcastically smirk a bit at comments saying this is just another lame ass track/spreadsheet game. It probably would feel that way to me if I played it, but do people here not think those playing these types of games would not feel the same way about the different genres of games they don't like?
To act like our opinions are facts and that we need to be looking for some hidden reason to validate its success as well as our opinion feels ignorant to me.
Last edit: 22 Nov 2019 16:00 by charlest.
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22 Nov 2019 15:53 #304464
by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
Correction: I don't know anything about Tapestry's alleged lazy-ass design/development issues.
Also, people are in this forum are allowed to say they think a game or style of game is lame.
Also, people are in this forum are allowed to say they think a game or style of game is lame.
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22 Nov 2019 15:56 #304465
by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
Sure, I hope we're allowed to say a post is lame too.
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22 Nov 2019 15:57 #304466
by Vysetron
The end changes, yes. But before the game was even out SM announced that they'd be collecting info in an effort to balance it after the fact. That's weird.
Replied by Vysetron on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
charlest wrote: Huh? This is not true. These balance tweaks are a result of over 3,000 logged plays in a google sheet from people playing after they've received their copiss.
The end changes, yes. But before the game was even out SM announced that they'd be collecting info in an effort to balance it after the fact. That's weird.
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22 Nov 2019 16:02 #304467
by Gary Sax
Replied by Gary Sax on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
I have no horse in this race, but it feels realistic to me, personally. I think perfect balance changes and no edits is a good lofty goal but once a game has enough moving parts I think it's just realistic to be ready in case you need to do additional balance.
And yes, you are allowed to disagree with posts vehemently and say games are lame (though not that the people making the posts are lame people).
And yes, you are allowed to disagree with posts vehemently and say games are lame (though not that the people making the posts are lame people).
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22 Nov 2019 16:10 #304468
by charlest
Replied by charlest on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
Good point, that is kind of odd but I would wager most every game would benefit from a balance tweak post release. So you could say this is a proactive approach.
By the way, I wasn't trying to target your comment specifically Uba. My comments were more intended as push back against the growing sentiment around here regarding Tapestry.
It's not even Tapestry really that I care about. This place tends to have a mob mentality at times that is very harsh. I instinctively want to push back against that because I think such strong tone can come across as authoritative and arrogant.
Michael is guilty of this often. I really like you dude and have much respect, but spouting opinions in such a harsh and demeaning manner is off-putting and denies meaningful conversation more often than it invites it.
By the way, I wasn't trying to target your comment specifically Uba. My comments were more intended as push back against the growing sentiment around here regarding Tapestry.
It's not even Tapestry really that I care about. This place tends to have a mob mentality at times that is very harsh. I instinctively want to push back against that because I think such strong tone can come across as authoritative and arrogant.
Michael is guilty of this often. I really like you dude and have much respect, but spouting opinions in such a harsh and demeaning manner is off-putting and denies meaningful conversation more often than it invites it.
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22 Nov 2019 16:38 #304469
by ubarose
Replied by ubarose on topic Stegmaier announces tweaks to Tapesty to address balance
Oh, okay.
See, I feel Michael's comments are mischievous and purposefully ridiculously hyperbolic, rather than authoritative and arrogant. But, yeah, if he's coming off as being harsh and authoritative, that could make people feel cross.
See, I feel Michael's comments are mischievous and purposefully ridiculously hyperbolic, rather than authoritative and arrogant. But, yeah, if he's coming off as being harsh and authoritative, that could make people feel cross.
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