CinemaDome: Empire vs Raiders

Raiders is fantastic, but Empire tops it. Raiders has the truck chase, but Empire has the Hoth battle and asteroid chase. Raiders has Indy shooting the swordsman, but Empire has Vader using the Force to absorb fucking blaster bolts with his palm (thus answering the playground question, "Why doesn't Han Solo just shoot Darth Vader?") before taking Han's blaster just as casually. Raiders has the Well of Souls escape which culminates in the great fight on and around the flying wing, whereas Empire has the Bespin fight that culminates in the best lightsaber duel in all seven movies.

And if a tiebreaker is needed, then Darth Vader tips the balance as far as I'm concerned. He far outclasses any of the Raiders villains (despite my affection for the wonderfully weird Toht) and overexposure makes one forget how brutal and frightening he is in this film, especially near the end of the the fight with Luke when he's done reasoning with him and is just trying to beat him. When he lunges out of the shadows at Luke in that hallway it's a truly pants-filling moment.

Vote: Empire

Raiders of the Lost Ark. Empire isn't even my favorite Star Wars movie.

Raiders is the perfect action movie, but Bludd said it best. Also, Snowspeeders. Vote: Empire

Raiders is a fine movie, but it's no Empire. Empire has Boba Fett, who's mythology far surpassed the plastic armour and overalls he wore.

Vote: The Empire Strikes Back to the tune of the Imperial March.

Raiders is just about perfect and it is truly a "they don't make 'em like that anymore" film. I've been watching it a lot lately because my son loves it (daughter- "Indian Jones is terrible!") and it never gets old. The music is perfect, the performances are great all around, and it really kind of represents the pinnacle of "blockbuster" Hollywood filmmaking in the 1980s

But Empire is something else. It is the best sequel ever made, and it did more to cement SW as part of the culture than ANH did. It took everything in ANH and made a full world with it, enriching everything in the process. It gave the characters more depth, it made things more complex, and it really elevated SW up out of the mindset that it was all just silly boomer nostalgia for Flash Gordon.

It also had the Battle of Hoth, which is pretty darn near the greatest thing ever filmed. And Yoda, the best muppet ever made. And of course, Darth Vader, the greatest villain of a time.

That's crazy talk. The best sequel ever made is either Aliens or The Road Warrior.

i'd like to see Aliens vs Empire, in terms of best sequels ever made. (other contenders are The Dark Knight, Terminator 2 or, one of my favourites, Before Sunset).

But yeah Battle of Hoth alone should solve this skirmish.


(hey, i posted the aliens thing at the same time as Shellhead! It really is the best sequel ever I think because it's not just a continuation of a story, but an entirely new story that you weren't expecting).

I think it was Roger Ebert who said it was Empire that gave the Star Wars movies their depth. That's what added the most memorable stuff to the series, and it really clarified that the stakes were a lot higher than we previously thought. It also definitely has the best action of the original trilogy. I'm not about to change my vote or anything, but this was definitely a hard choice for me.

Hrm. This is an interesting one, since both screenplays were written by the same guy: Lawrence Kasdan.

When I look at Empire, I see the best Star Wars film. I mean, that's not setting the bar very high (Ewoks, Jar Jar Binks, etc.) but it's still a well-constructed story, has characters that act like, you know... humans, and has some of the greatest SF action sequences ever made (the attack on Hoth, the lightsaber duel in Cloud City, etc.) Taking the writing reins away from Lucas was probably the best thing that could have happened to the franchise and it has never improved since. But the interesting thing is that it created another series of visual and cultural icons (AT-ATs, Yoda) to go along with those of the first film (Vader, TIE fighters, lightsabers), while still retaining a sense of dramatic progression. That's actually trickier to do than most people think. Also, I appreciate the willingness to get grim (the torture scenes, the real sense of menace when the Empire enters the base on Hoth, the darkness of the tree on Dagobah, etc.) There are also a couple different "nerd moments" that kept me fascinated as a kid; most prominently, the gathering of bounty hunters. I sent in proofs of purchase from other figures to get the mail order Boba Fett and my highest goal that summer was to get Bossk, Dengar, and IG-88. OTOH, Yoda verges on parody from the opening moments and the much-regaled Boba Fett doesn't actually do anything in the film except stand there and look vaguely menacing (I met Jeremy Bulloch at a comic show we were working one time and hung out with him and Caroline Blakiston (Mon Mothma) for much of the weekend; great people and we were obnoxious enough to keep Caroline giggling the whole time, since our booth was set up across from them.)

However, I'm tempted to say that Raiders simply had more cultural impact, even with the somewhat more bombastic story. It brought to life the serials that Lucas had loved as a kid but, unlike the first Star Wars film, it was actually well done, with a story that's somewhat more engrossing simply because it touches upon familiar culture and history. I remember when Empire was released and it was an event because it was "Star Wars 2", but the excitement dissipated fairly soon. The furor around Raiders lasted and people were acknowledging it as a great film when it was released and not two decades later like Empire unfortunately was. So it's worth it to examine what gave it that presence and I think, beyond anything else, it's the performances and the questions.

As much as Harrison Ford was more comfortable as Han Solo in Empire because he actually had decent dialogue and real emotions, it was clear that he embodied the concept of Indiana Jones. The ad-libbing and dialogue insertions made the character come alive every time he was on camera. One of my favorites is when Belloq is taunting him from atop the Well of Souls: "Who knows? In a thousand years, even you may be worth something!" Indy laughs, half-real in appreciation of the good joke and half-facetiously because he hates the fact that Belloq has put one over on him just with the line, in addition to stealing the Ark, and follows it with the muttered: "Son of a bitch..."

That's a deep understanding of the character and an ability to make him come alive that exceeds all the snakes and lightshows going on around him. Similarly, Paul Freeman, Karen Allen, Denholm Elliott, and John-Rhys Davies all do a great job at fully realizing their characters and displaying a range of emotion. I also loved George Harris in his bit role as Capt. Katanga, especially when he squares off with Dietrich and the jovial seaman displays the contempt for and frustration with the impudence and racist attitudes of the Nazi interlopers. That's not to say that there aren't good human moments in Empire. There are... just not as good and not as many as there are in Raiders. Part of that is the talent of the cast. But part of it is also the theme behind the presence of the SFX in the two films. In Empire, it virtually defines it. The love story and the tragedy of Luke's heritage run about neck-and-neck with the awesome spectacle of the Super Star Destroyer and the walkers. That technology is a significant aspect of the film and, without it, despite the solid screenplay, the film wouldn't really work.

In Raiders, OTOH, the very theme of the character is that he doesn't believe in all the hocus-pocus or deeply religious aspects of what he's pursuing ("I'm going after a find of incredible historical significance. You're talking about the boogeyman!") Part of the story is how he comes to grips with the powers that seem to exist beyond the reach of his Colt .45 (Billy Dee Williams reference. Meta!) and bullwhip. The awesome moment in the map room, as you see the wonder come over his face, even though he knows that, on a scientific level, it's just engineering and the angle of the sun and not "magic" that makes it work, is telling. He's compelled to pursue these things, in part, because he wants answers even to questions that he's unwilling to ask or acknowledge. The SFX are kept restrained, by both story and director, so that when they are released, it not only creates a sense of wonder, but a question for both characters and audience: What do we believe?

So, in the end, I think the pick is Raiders of the Lost Ark. It's a narrow win, but it's a win.

i bet you're related to Admiral Ozzel

Using the highly scientific blend of which movie had a bigger impact as a kid and which I would pick to watch if they were both on tv on a Sunday afternoon, I'll go with Empire.

I'll also pre-register my vote of Empire over Before Sunset, whenever that Trashdome happens.

This looked like it was going to be a beat-down, but another Star Wars film is in for a fight.

We're knotted up at 8 each.

Before Sunset is an awful sequel and not a great movie either.

False on both counts but I'd expect nothing less.

Black Barney wrote: False on both counts but I'd expect nothing less.

Before Sunrise has one of the best film endings where we don't know whether either of them will show up at the train station later. The sequel tells us he showed up and she was visiting her sick grandmother. Answering a question that shouldn't have been answered. Also tells us that they did in fact have sex in the graveyard after her speech about not wanting to be his one-night stand story. It basically ruins the first movie and that's not what a sequel should do, imo.