The Last Jedi - Full Spoilers

Ancient_of_MuMu wrote: What people loved about TFA was how much it embraced the past, and when TLJ comes along and says that this was wrong and that we need to look to the future it gets everyone in a tizzy, and also clearly explains why some people love it so much and some hate it so much.

Totally agreed. I think that nicely summarizes why this movie is so divisive. TFA was the movie equivalent of meatloaf. It did nothing to surprise or challenge the viewer. It was familiar comfort food. Then TLJ comes along and it's like eating at some weird Asian-French fusion restaurant. Maybe not everything works, but at least it's new and different, and by episode fucking EIGHT, I would very much like to see something new and different in this franchise. I swear to God, if Episode 9 starts out with Rey opening up a Jedi voucher school, then has to deal with some moody, angsty, emo Force-user who flirts with the dark side ... UGH.

I liked TLJ a lot. I understand the criticisms of the plot holes, but in the moment, none of them bothered me. My biggest issue was that it could easily have been a tight 2-hour movie instead of a bloated 2 hours and 30 minutes. And I felt the bloat too.

Joebot wrote:

Ancient_of_MuMu wrote: What people loved about TFA was how much it embraced the past, and when TLJ comes along and says that this was wrong and that we need to look to the future it gets everyone in a tizzy, and also clearly explains why some people love it so much and some hate it so much.

Totally agreed. I think that nicely summarizes why this movie is so divisive. TFA was the movie equivalent of meatloaf. It did nothing to surprise or challenge the viewer. It was familiar comfort food. Then TLJ comes along and it's like eating at some weird Asian-French fusion restaurant. Maybe not everything works, but at least it's new and different, and by episode fucking EIGHT, I would very much like to see something new and different in this franchise. I swear to God, if Episode 9 starts out with Rey opening up a Jedi voucher school, then has to deal with some moody, angsty, emo Force-user who flirts with the dark side ... UGH.

I liked TLJ a lot. I understand the criticisms of the plot holes, but in the moment, none of them bothered me. My biggest issue was that it could easily have been a tight 2-hour movie instead of a bloated 2 hours and 30 minutes. And I felt the bloat too.

I found this quote and was just about to post it and then found you had said almost the same thing:

"The challenge comes for the viewer is this:

Do you need need your Star Wars to be comfort food? No harm, no foul if you do. Some look to Star Wars and need it to be the perfect mirror it has been — they don’t want that mirror broken so that other stories can be told, so that other people can see themselves in the shared shards. Some want the tropes. They want the familiarity. They need nostalgia.

And this movie burns it all down.

It’s okay if you didn’t like it.

But it’s worth appreciating what it did, and why, even if you don’t."

The real sin of the film was that most of the first act’s jokes failed to deliver.

I feel like none of the criticism or discussion around the web is really capturing what I didn't enjoy about the film. For the record, I think TFA was just alright and not great by any means.

I really want these movies to go in new and interesting directions, but I want them to retain the tone of the originals. I feel the tone is very off at times.

My issues:
-The humor was totally over the top and marred the atmosphere for me. I much preferred the humor in Rogue One (not Vader's cheese, but Chirrut in particular). It felt slapstick at times and left me cold.

-Many of these new characters are goofy and comedic, not strong and imposing. The OT has a very classic feel to it, yet these new characters don't feel as stern or grown up. they feel like kids at times (Finn's comedy bits being a striking example). I would have never fell in love with Star Wars if the Rebellion was a bunch of Finns and the Empire was a bunch of Huxs.

-It still clung too much to Empire. They remade Hoth, they had Luke act goofy like Yoda. The Resistance was fleeing the Imps and abandoning their base, etc.

-Characters making very dumb decisions. The OT doesn't hold up to intense scrutiny, but it felt more consistent to me in its logic. Poe (one of the best new characters IMO), initiates a mutiny - why? Because Laura Dern simply doesn't share her plan with him.

Why does the Empire chase the Resistance fleet instead of just jumping in front of them or calling in for more reinforcements?

Why do the Resistance pilots charge at the Imps in those speeders at the end and then just decide to break away?



My favorite parts of the film are when they surprise us but still maintain that Star Wars feel. Kylo Ren received some very solid character development. I loved the throne room scene with Snoke, and I'm ok with him dying abruptly because it shocked me, heightened Kylo as a villain, and it was a novel way for him to die without repeating a Palpatine arc.

For the record, I really thought how they handled Luke and the backstory with Kylo was well done. I also enjoyed Kylo and Rey's Jedi phone conversations. I'm equal parts love and hate with Leia's Jedi powers.

charlest wrote: My favorite parts of the film are when they surprise us but still maintain that Star Wars feel. Kylo Ren received some very solid character development. I loved the throne room scene with Snoke, and I'm ok with him dying abruptly because it shocked me, heightened Kylo as a villain, and it was a novel way for him to die without repeating a Palpatine arc.

That was my favorite part, because I interpreted it as a correction to a flaw in the OT -- Palpatine is a useless character who serves no dramatic purpose. Vader IS the bad guy. The story is Vader's. Or, at least, it SHOULD be. By introducing a new, bigger, eviler bad guy late in the trilogy, Lucas was simply trying to amp up the stakes, sort of like having a second, bigger, eviler Death Star. In my opinion. TLJ fixes that issue by quickly deposing of the "Palapatine-figure," which allows Episode 9 to focus the story where it belongs -- Kylo Ren. Kylo IS the bad guy. This is now firmly his story, and not Snoke's story (a character we know nothing about, and give less of a shit about).

Also, it gave us my favorite action scene in the whole movie!! That lightsaber fight with the red guards was tense and brutal.

I dunno, as silly as the earlier ST films are at least they felt connected. TLJ barely carries anything from TFA over and literally dumps most of it as soon as possible. I'm shocked Finn wasn't allowed to suicide, or that all of Leia after the bridge strike wasn't shown to be a force ghost projection (which, quite frankly, would have been more palatable to me than a vacuum of space force flight). The film just felt so small, as if this was a brawl between to street corner thugs instead of a war for the soul of the Republic. No one on casino world was watching space news about the 2 day (a week at most?) old strike that wiped out most of a system or seems all that interested in it. I wanted Starkiller Base to be like 9/11 or Pearl Harbor; a call to war, make an ideological conflict that mirrors the dark/light force (with an equally relevant "grey force" solution). Instead it was discarded and even trivialized. The First Order continues to look like they couldn't shake down a candy store without burning it to the ground by mistake and the Resistance looks to be staffed by the teachers of a pre-school. There is just no weight to anything in the film because every solution seems illogical or unbelievable.

I excuse most of the Rey/Luke/Kylo stuff because that was actually pretty cool. I just think it was saddled with a bunch of silly rebel stuff. Even the battles in this film, throneroom fight aside, were silly. Very lopsided, lacking in the combined arms seen in other films, and without real coherence.

Are we just a full on spoiler thread at this point? If not, then SPOILERS from here on out.



Saw it last night. Probably my favorite Star Wars since Empire though I will gladly admit that it is uneven and a little bloated at times. Bullet points because I'm at work and it's early in the morning:

- I think one thing we can all agree on is that Adam Driver is the best thing to happen to Start Wars since Harrison Ford. Dude has a presence and every scene he's in is awesome.

- In general, everything with Rey, Kylo and Luke was spot on. They walked the line of delivering what I wanted and subverting my expectations pretty well.

- The Finn/Rose subplot was a bit goofy at times, but overall I liked it and it helped bring some levity to what was otherwise a bit of a downer of a movie.

- Now if I could make one change to the structure of the movie, it would be the Poe mutiny subplot. The whole thing was a bit of a mess. I'm still not 100% sure why Vice Admiral lady was keeping the plan secret, and it muted her sacrifice later on since I've already come to not like the character. If it was up to me, I would have just had her OK the plan and had Poe go with Finn and Rose. That way you're just cutting between Rey/Kylo/Luke and Finn/Poe/Rose with shots of the fleets just being a timer instead of a third wheel of muddled character motivations. Could help get the run time close to that magic 2 hour mark too.

- Some of the humor was bad. Like, really bad. I don't want to see another joyless slog like Rogue One but I also don't want to see prank calls.

Over all, I liked it a lot. Disappointment Abrams is getting IX. Everyone be prepared for Death Star IV.

Finally saw this last night. I give it a B, maybe a B+. Definitely better than Force Awakens. Lots of high points, but the low points were so, so incredibly low.

Now to go back and read this thread to see what I was supposed to think about it.

OK, I saw it. The short version of my opinion on it is that I loved it and I think it was awkward, ballsy, bold, political and surprising- not things I'd expect at this point from a Star Wars movie, and I would go so far as to say that this is the most maverick and daring film in the franchise since A New Hope. The longer version is more complicated. There were highs and lows, no doubt. Some of it did not work completely. Some of it fumbled. But I'll take those tentative steps toward a new SW vision over continuing to meet expectations like clockwork.

There are two scenes that I think really sum up what The Last Jedi is all about. One is obviously Luke chucking the lightsaber, which I thought was both funny and completely shocking given the almost religious gravity of the final scene in TFA. The other is Finn and Rose riding those horse/deer things through the casino- it was both a bold political statement (surprising for a SW film) and also a statement of intent- Rian Johnson is running roughshod over the complacent, spoiled, and pampered and he does not give a shit. So much of the film's running time seems to be about thwarting and subverting Star Wars traditions and...I -loved- that. It really is about The Last Jedi...Luke.

It meant a lot to me that Yoda showed up (in his true puppet form)- because he really kind of embodies what Johnson is putting over in this film. Yoda, even in Empire, has more or less refuted Jedi tradition because ultimately, it's not the Jedi Order that matters. It's the Force. All the books, all of the way things are supposed to be done, all of the mystical stuff...it means nothing, and having Yoda there to literally burn it all down really brings to a culmination point things I've thought about the Jedi especially in the wake of the Clone Wars show- and Luke echoes those doubts about their "heroism". Much like the Crusaders, they maybe were not the noble knights-errant that you think.

As much as this is a film about casting off the shackles of tradition and ritual, this is also a film about failure. Reckless heroism doesn't magically work every time. The good guys fuck up and miss. The grand plan fumbles. Good guys screw up and people die. This is very much a film about dealing with failure and its consequences, which is also something shocking and unexpected in a Star Wars film. Every main character in this film fails in some way, and deals with consequences. The heroism is in perseverance and remaining true to the good, light or right. Not in blowing up the big superweapon. All of that is far more complicated and mature than the usual Star Wars moral dichotomy, and I think it develops nicely from TFA.

I find it really funny that with TFA, there were folks upset that it was just another SW film, slavishly hitting the main beats and doing all of the obvious Star Wars stuff even to the point of replicating elements. But like I said in 2015, it needed to do that to reset the table. Now, with The Last Jedi, everyone is complaining about it being too "off" from the Star Wars template. Which pretty much proves that there is no pleasing the "fans" (vomit). I am actually in awe that Johnson was allowed so much freedom, and I think that the fact that Lucasfilm has given him the reins to another standalone series speaks volumes to how much Star Wars NEEDED this film, whether the whiners agree or not.

Digging into particulars, Kylo Ren is absolutely on par with Vader, Yoda, Han, and Ahsoka as the best characters this franchise has ever offered. He is utterly compelling, fascinating and tragic. His struggle is profound because he _does_ have good in him and we know this- it's in his blood. His doubt is painful to watch. Rey reaching out to him- and connecting- feels honest and hopeful, but he's like an addict that just can't get away from his drug. The fight in Snoke's throne room was one of the most thrilling, exhilarating battles in all of Star Wars- I gasped out loud when they were fighting back to back. Snoke's death is absolutely the right choice- I don't really care about the fan theories and assumptions, Snoke had to be killed so that Kylo could become the main villain...but now we have a main villain that is conflicted, with emotional weak points and the propensity to do good.

Luke was perfect. I felt like his character in this film was the perfect growth from that kid on Tatooine. And he still had that touch of darkness about him- the temptation to kill Kylo Ren in his bed was scary and alluring...and how unusual was it to see perspective-altering flashbacks in a SW film? The last stand was incredible- when Kylo and Luke faced off on the salt flats, I literally said out loud "I had no idea that this was going to happen". I'm sure a lot of fans (vomit) were upset that it wasn't a blowout lightsaber battle, but I thought that Luke spending the last moments of his life forgiving him, saving the resistance, and not really being there anyway was far more powerful an outcome.

Rey's arc was compelling, and I actually hope they stick it out with the "your parents were junkers that sold you for drinking money". I'm sure, again, that fans are upset that she's not a Kenobi or a Solo or whatever, but I think Johnson saw that there was value in her literally coming up from nothing and upending the whole "noble blood" thing that sort of runs through SW. She is such a great foil for Kylo Ren, who is certain of his lineage and trying to live up to what he thinks that means. I think she had the most difficult role in the film. I find it really interesting that it turns out that she is NOT the last Jedi. That was Luke. There won't be more. Sure, there may be force-users that sling lightsabers...but the Jedi are no more, because they were ultimately rendered irrelevant. It is just the Force.

As for everybody else, Rose was good- I think the picture needed someone upbeat and optimistic like her, she had a real sense of heart and I liked her with Finn. Leia was better than in TFA. The whole spacing scene was a little weird and ultimately unnecessary- I didn't like the way it looked, but it was interesting to see her cheat death in her last film. Poe is great, and I liked the phone call joke- I laughed, and I liked how it deflated Hux. In fact, I think Hux is at his best as the cartoon uber-dick that constantly gets deflated. That is much more interesting and fun than if he were Tarkin 2.0, which is what I think people want out of him. Admiral Holdo I did not like, I felt like Laura Dern was miscast and her costume was just off. I agree that her whole plan didn't make sense, but I just sort of went with it. DJ was a misfire- I felt like the character was underwritten and obvious, he REALLY felt more like an Expanded Universe character. I liked the Maz thing, I know some people felt like it was unnecessary but you got a sense in TFA that she was a hellraiser.

The humor mostly worked for me, I didn't think anything was egregiously bad except for the "Texas Oil Tycoon" voice of the alien that reported the shuttle landing at Canto Bight. I didn't really care that it didn't "feel like Star Wars"...because there again, this movie is pushing against what "feel like Star Wars" means.
I love that the movie is divisive, controversial, and even awkward. I love that Johnson had the guts to throw that lightsaber over the cliff and kill off the assumed Big Bad. He didn't even put "I have a bad feeling about this" in there. I'm sure "fans" (retch) want his head on a platter for not meeting up with their checklists of what they wanted...but you know what, maybe he was trying to give us something we didn't know we wanted.

As far all of the "why didn't they..." and the "it doesn't make any sense that..." criticisms...I don't even give them the time of day. They didn't because it's not the story and it doesn't because it's a fantasy. The end.

Other notes:
- The breast milk thing was FUCKING WEIRD! But once again, I loved that SW got weird in this. And it did remind me of the blue milk.

- Porgs were great, and were actually not in it as much as I thought. I could have actually used more interaction between Chewbacca and them.

- The whole salt flats scene was beautiful. It didn't make a lick of tactical sense. But so what. This is not a historical drama.

- Captain Phasma can't be dead. We have to see her again. She is awesome in every brief scene.

- I liked all of the stuff with the urchins, especially where he was telling the story of Luke's last stand- that reminded me of the end of Jedi when Threepio is telling the story of the rebellion to the Ewoks. Myth-making. The kid with the broom was also a lovely coda to the completion of Luke's story.

- Luke winking at Threepio was MAGICAL. That is seriously like my favorite moment in the entire film.

- How do you drop bombs in space?

- Kylo Ren's chest should be compared to Khan's.

- Admiral Ackbar dying offscreen was a travesty.

- Knights of Ren are still a big question mark- pretty clear they were the other students at Luke's temple, but we still know almost nothing. Could be something else that Johnson is jettisoning.

So in all, I think the "fans" (spit) can go fuck themselves on this. This movie points the way to a NEW kind of Star Wars film, and I am all for it. I've seen enough of the classic, George Lucas- worshipping kind of movie. Rogue One whet my appetite for new kinds of SW stories, settings and characters. The Last Jedi cemented it. Abrams has his work cut out for him after this- I believe what we will see is a kind of reconciliation between this awkward, weird and turbulent installment and the more genuflecting tone of TFA. Which could be very interesting to see. But in time, I think that TLJ is going to be remembered as the most interesting and singular film in the entire series. Unless Johnson surprises us again with his new SW stories, or another director takes us into an entirely different direction.

hey, how about enough with the stupid group tagging? This is however a lovely microcosm of todays online society/politics. If some other people have a different opinion to yours, they need a label, preferably with quotes and thus, nothing but derision. What a crock of shit.

I am no "fan" (wipes your spit), but paid my 10 fucking dollars like you did. I thought the film was mainly crap. But thats just my opinion, it doesnt invalidate anyone elses, its OK if everyone else loves it, and I dont need to question anyone elses cred, group membership or political affiliation because of it.

Who knows, in 2 years time, I may just well pay to watch the next one, will no doubt be disappointed and may well post an opinion to that extent. More fool me, for the most part, but fuck, when did it start that every single fucking discussion about anything, even something completely and utterly irrelevant also have to devolve into flag flying about which group you belong in and fuck you if you're not in my group.

I don't understand a lot of your reasoning, but you damn well have the right to an opinion, and you made a long and clear support of it. Thats good. It's a shame you can't have a contrary opinion without being derided and slagged off by people you dont fucking know and have never met in person, that is so weird to me. Sincere apologies that Barney cannot watch Tron movies any more with the same level of joy because I thought TLJ was a shit movie and that Ancient of MuMu thinks its OK to tell me I am "wrong" about my own personal opinion, because I am obviously a misogynist neanderthal who just doesnt get it (despite me clearly calling out the exact opposite of that in a previous post)

I will say, if you're interested (which you're clearly not) that its a false equivalence to say people complain just whether its the same SW movie or totally different, its not a binary choice. Its possible not to want a direct rehashing of the same stories and plot arcs, while still having a coherent story within that universe and not just deciding to change tack with all kinds of stuff that you know (which as other critics pointed out, is very little considering its an entire universe of stuff, the actual canon is very small). Also "stuff making sense" does not mean "ooo, laser swords, stop complaining about logic" as you full well know, its about following internal logic and rules presented. If the Death Star pulls up at a planet, but instead of blowing it up, The Emperor decides to send in 12 stormtroopers to dig down to the planetary core and plant a bomb with a timer to blow up the planet, thats stupid, and makes no sense given the internal rules you just established that the Death Star can blow fucking planets up. So no, just because a film is "made up" is not the same as "accept all logically inconsisent nonsense" if that stuff just does not fit within the presented framework and reasonable assumptions of how something would work. Its jarring. YMMV. If you're OK with comedy speakerphone jokes and references to "yo mamma" as being a revolutionary way to restart the franchise, thats your choice. I thought it was dumb. The 24 hour meet, dumb pointless side mission, logically idiotic final moment intervention, oo, fall in love, love will save the day nonsense for me, was idiotic. Its OK if you didnt think that. Likewise the casino (entire section), horse thingies (entire section). I don't think Kylo Ren is that interesting. I think in the end, SW grew beyond what it should have been, but the good news is there are lots of executives happy to make lots of money by making lots of films for lots of people who will like them. At this point, I will be unsubscribing from the series (I guess we will see in 2 years). I thought this was a thread to discuss movies, I feel a bit creeped out that anyone should be perturbed by my opinion, feel the need to assume an entire political backstory to me, and try to use a quoted group label. Good for all of you who love the movie.

wtf #pleasetrynottospitoverhere

Tron, you aren’t the problem here and you aren’t who I’m ill with- it’s the “fandom” that is attacking this movie, not folks like you that just didn’t like it. You’ve got fair reasons for not liking it and so do the others here, and that’s totally fine! It’s the hardcore fans that feel like they have a sense of ownership and entitlement about what should/shouldn’t be in a SW film and aren’t open to something different then their proscribed vision.

It’s totally cool to disagree about the movie! Let’s! We _should_! It’s made to be divisive!

Thing is, toxic fandom ruins a lot of things these days...and that’s very different than “I saw it and hated it”. So don’t put yourself in the groups I’m vomiting on!

Thanks Michael, that was kind. I really enjoy your writing and respect your opinion, even when it differs from my own. I was more perturbed by the other stuff higher up. I don't want to rag on "fans", I mean, I know what you mean, but I think in a general sense, all of us easily fall into groupthink about a whole bunch of stuff thats not so important, and probably dont step back and question it a bit. On t'other hand I've always been a bit of a contrarian anarchist in that, so if anything I tend to side with trolling/teasing any kind of interested group when they take things too seriously. But usually BGG is the place where thats more profitable, I thought you guys were a bit more refined than that, even if you talk a bit more smack to the face

again, FWLIW, its great that so many people obviously loved the movie, my opinion is nothing worth noting to be honest

This is a pretty decent take on the film someone in another forum linked to. I think this will remain one a controversial point in the series because it subverts the Skywalker Myth that the other two prequels have rested on.

https://filmcrithulk.blog/2017/12/15/the-force-belongs-to-us-the-last-jedis-beautiful-refocusing-of-star-wars/

“Fuck Skywalkers.”

My friend said this in a conversation a long time ago. And he didn’t mean it about the characters themselves, nor what they meant to him. He meant it in the sense of the Star Wars series’ focus on lineage and the way some all powerful family who are the most powerful force users who basically controlled the fate of galaxy was… super gross. And he’s right, quite frankly. Because it’s everything I hate about the notion of ‘destiny” and “why I’m destined to be a hero!” bullshit. That psychology only leads you to the kind of place where you are the asshole kid screaming DO YOU KNOW WHO MY FATHER IS!?!?! at night clubs. And as this series has gone on and on, it has fed more and more into that thinking. So it would always this deep fear in me that in the return to the galaxy far far away, the new trilogy would get sucked back into that thematic toxicity.

And I think returning the Force to a nobody kid looking up at the Stars was SOOO important to that end...it’s not about privileged, elite bloodlines. It got to the point where it was just assumed that Rey had to be part of this sort of galactic 1%.

Speaking of the 1%, the casino was sort of shaky- the idea was awesome, and the bit about all of the monied elites profiting off war and exploitation was great. But it also felt maybe just a shade to close to the diner in Phantom Menace. I was glad to see it torn the fuck up both thematically and physically.

But here is an interesting thing- I may be wrong, but I do not believe that we see ANY previous SW Aliens there. No Rodians, no Yithians, no Twilek, no Bothans, no Zabraks, etc. This implies that all we’ve seen are the lower class species!

I think the Force is kind of explained, finally: it chooses people who will become crucial in the changing of history. When bad comes, good erupts. When things are too good, bad comes. It’s a story of the balance of good and evil, basically.