Who hates World of Warcraft TBG and why?

I played it today and thought it was a pretty good 4 player dungeon crawl. I noticed Barnes rated it a 2 on BGG.

What is so awful about it? I thought the character advancement was well done, if a little derivative, but the combat system is very clever and manages to capture a lot of different fantasy weapon/class/skill/spell tropes through the use of a very small number of mechanics... plus the pieces are all awesome. I certainly don't think it is great, interaction with the other team is way too rare, but it is an above average dungeon crawl.

So why the hate? Barnes? Anyone?

Wait, there was a dungeon?

I think one of the expansions adds one, maybe you played with it.

I haven't played it in like four-five years and honestly I don't really remember what all I hated about it so much...I know that I tried it four times at AGF, and every time it completely crashed. I do remember that it was really boring, it hit all the usual fantasy game tropes, and I didn't like that it felt like some kind of objective-based RISK game more than an adventure. I also think it was one of those kinds of things where you spend a giant portion of the game reading cards to figure out when to play to squeeze out a reroll or whatever. The combat system was kind of interesting, that dice pool thing. And I definitely remember that it was the kind of game where I'm just hating life every second the game is out in front of me.

I wanted to try it again with both of the expansions sometime, but it seems like it's one of those that no one around here plays at all anymore.

The answer to your question is "Cocksuckers."

I wouldn't call it a dungeon crawl - it's an adventure game. All adventure games (including talisman) have the 'not much player interaction' thing going on in them, if anything this has a slight bit more than normal. The problem is more that PvP combat can last for AGES! The deadly PvP optional rules fix that though.
The game can have long downtime, but experience and not playing with indecisive jackasses fixes that.

In the end the game is a very hardcore Adventure game, and that's probably why it gets a bum wrap. Most gamers are softcocks who would rather deliver magic candles to the shop in Return of the Heroes because it's quicker and they can get in a dozen games of Dominion afterwards to practise their shuffling.

Hm. I liked it better than runebound, prophecy, and RotH... I was wondering if I would get any more explanation out of the haters than boring and sucks. Sounds like not. I basically agree with skeletor's assessment of the game.

The downtime wasn't a big issue for us because we would start our turn as soon as reasonably possible, always while the other side was doing something. Game didn't take that long.

Did you use any of the expansions?

One of the common criticisms I've heard of the game is that every 'mission' you embark on is about going and killing something. You start off killing the small things until you can kill the bigger things, then you killer the bigger things until you can kill the ultimate big thing. Hopefully you reach this point before the turns run out, or you have to participate in an end game battle royale with the other team, which can last a while.

I can totally understand the appeal of killing things, but it does seem like it would be nice for there to be other stuff to do in the game. I've actually never played it, so I may be way off.

Do any of the expansions add variety to the missions/quests?

We didn't use any of the expansions. I called it a dungeon crawl because I think of every rpg-esque kill shit and level up game as a dungeon crawl.

I agree that every "mission" is just going to kill stuff... but since it is based on a diablo/WoW game where basically that is what you do I went in expecting that. I found it fun for 3.5 hours and I only drank two beers so it wasn't the alcohol.

hancock.tom wrote:

I agree that every "mission" is just going to kill stuff... but since it is based on a diablo/WoW game where basically that is what you do I went in expecting that.

I can understand and appreciate that. You want to maintain the same kind of flavor. It has to be asked though, if it's the same as the video game, why don't you just play the video game? That's not rhetorical, by the way. I've never played WOW the MMORPG or board game. I would honestly like to know why someone would choose to play WOW:tbg over the MMO.

clockwirk wrote:

hancock.tom wrote:

I agree that every "mission" is just going to kill stuff... but since it is based on a diablo/WoW game where basically that is what you do I went in expecting that.

I can understand and appreciate that. You want to maintain the same kind of flavor. It has to be asked though, if it's the same as the video game, why don't you just play the video game? That's not rhetorical, by the way. I've never played WOW the MMORPG or board game. I would honestly like to know why someone would choose to play WOW:tbg over the MMO.

Because I want to play a boardgame.
It's a representation of the videogame, but it isn't the same thing. Its like saying "Why play spacehulk when you can play doom on the PC instead?"

As far as missions go - yes it is all killing. But what else do you want to do apart from that? They could do the whole "pick up and deliver things" quests I guess, but apart from that what other kinds of quests are there really?

Repeat post.

It was a long time ago, but I remember really enjoying the game and being surprised at the disappointment of others. I looked up what I wrote on the game way back when and in response to a "downtime galore" review (which seems to be a bone of contention with a lot of people) I wrote --

3. Down time can be GREATLY reduced with prep action and post action. You should start your turn knowing exactly where you want to go and what you want to do. This prep should occur during the other team's previous turn. Since your entire team is waiting, you have a real opportunity to figure out who is taking on what. When your team's second actions are finished, the next team starts immediately. Your level work, your magic items, your purchases . . . these ALL happen during the other team's turn. Then you prep for the next turn. If you still have fifteen minutes between turns after doing this, you need to get a timer (or faster friends).

My other bullet points were, 1 -- I loved the game, 2 -- you need to work it to come from behind by teaming up and separating at the right times, 4 -- the Blue monsters are supposed to suck and you need to "make it work" (a recurring theme for me even back then) 5 -- don't know if the sides are balanced or not, 6 -- it's big, that's a drawback??? 7 -- it's long, that's a drawback??? 8 -- it's pretty!

Unfortunately the copy I played moved to Missouri with its rightful owner so I don't get the opportunity to play it anymore. This is one I'd like another shot at.

Sag.

I've played it once and was thoroughly underwhelmed. One thing I really hated about the game was the fact that it's virtually impossible to keep track of what the other team is doing. It's hard enough to maximize your own character, but if you also want to know a bit about your advesaries (or just keep up on how the game is progressing) things get very difficult indeed.

I imagine that after some games you can just take a quick look at another character and get an idea of their skill and weapon layout based on card names alone, but for our (first) game it made the entire thing bog down. And come to think of it; even though I've played lots of games of TWILIGHT IMPERIUM, I still can't remember what all the techs do. But at least in TI I have my own copy of tech cards to look at.

But the combat system seemed cool - as far as I remember it made combat feel like something was actually happening (it told a story).

I don't think it's completely awful. There are some neat ideas in there, but ultimately it's one I always hope doesn't get brought out at game night.

What is so awful about it?

Short answer: It's basically a kicked up version of Runebound, with all the same problems that game had, which is compounded by the fact that it introduces some new ones.

I thought the character advancement was well done, if a little derivative...

It captures the feel of playing a Diablo-like game pretty well, but it pretty much is the game. That's mostly what I hate so much about it. Picking the right combo of cards so you get the most dice or automatic hits possible (especially range dice) is way too close to playing a Euro optimization game. Other than that, there's not much else to the game.

but the combat system is very clever and manages to capture a lot of different fantasy weapon/class/skill/spell tropes through the use of a very small number of mechanics...

It's essentially Runebounds combat, only on steroids. It takes a while to resolve, and it's too process heavy to convey the immediacy of one-on-one or small-group combat. It's a flowchart, really. I can put up with it in something like TI:3, where those several steps of combat resolution feel appropriate, but here it feels very much like a bunch of smoke and mirrors covering up what is ultimately a pretty shallow experience.

plus the pieces are all awesome.

When this is said about an FFG game, it's pretty much meaningless. All their games have good pieces. So what?

IIRC, Barnes made a pretty good point about them in his BBG comment. You can go into any drug store and pick up a whole bag of these kinds of figures for a buck.

I certainly don't think it is great, interaction with the other team is way too rare, but it is an above average dungeon crawl.

There not being much interaction isn't a huge deal for me, the shitty end game is a problem. Really, I just can't stand the fact that there's no adventure of which to speak. It's all leveling up, which I admit is what the PC game is all about, I just prefer my adventure gaming along the lines of Talisman or ToTAN, where there are always different things happening which make the game seem more like a story.

It's a slow march to an anti-climactic ending.

The entire "there is no story, you just kill things and level up" is a legitimate gripe if you came to the game not expecting WoW. I'm not sure that isn't a little silly considering the title of the game, but I understand where you are coming from. If I didn't know the game was based on the WoW license I might feel the same way.

What drug store does Barnes shop at? You won't find me ripping Barnes often but his comment about the minis is one of two things 1. extreme hyperbole showing just how bad FFG has spoiled him OR 2. Barnes is totally ignorant about miniatures. Miniatures like these would run anywhere from 2-3$ a piece if you purchased them from a miniatures retailer/company and nothing in my drugstore is of this quality.