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Changed up my discard list to a more controlly thing. I liked Kripp's idea of trying to contest the early game with minions (Firefly, Imp, etc.) but I think it's a better idea to play a waiting game (i.e. quest completion) with stuff like Defile, rather than trying to beat Odd Paladin head-to-head.

2x Kobold Librarian
Lx Lakkari Sacrifice
2x Shriek
2x Soulfire
1x Soularium
2x Defile
2x Demonfire
2x Howlfiend
2x Reckless Diretroll
1x Cataclysm
2x Lakkari Fellhound
2x Despicable Dreadlord
2x Doomguard
1x Dread Infernal
1x Siphon Soul
2x Soulwarden
1x Bloodreaver Gul'dan

I can see Jeb already: "What? Lakkari Fellhound?! No! Play the good cards!" And he's right. Fellhound isn't a good card. But for handling the variety of minion decks out there AND completing the quest ASAP, which should be the focus of any discard deck, Fellhound is actually decent. Plus, turn 3 Fellhound followed by Demonfire (assuming I don't discard it...) gives me a 5/10 that can pretty much lay waste to anything and/or protect me from anything. Demonfire is just a good utility card, at this point. The single Siphon is my answer to not having any silence in the deck. The real weak point is Dread Infernal, because it's overkill with the Shrieks, Dreadlords, and Defiles. I just added it because I don't have a Clutchmother (who's more useful in this version than the other one) and because it's a big body that'll get returned by Gul'dan. Thought about trading it out for a Void Ripper.

It is, of course, risky to have Gul'dan in a discard deck, since he'll inevitably be sitting in your hand for a long time and be at risk, but having the Soulwardens is kind of a hedge against that and he's still the best of the Death Knights.

Oh, and I tried a Hireek deck because I pulled him from a pack. Spirit of the Bat, Grim Rally, Soul Infusion, Arena Fanatic, etc. Holy shit is that deck bad. It seems like it has more synchronicity than the awful Paladin handbuff stuff from Gadgetzan, but it really doesn't. The biggest problem is that there are just too many tokens that are utterly ineffective in dealing with any other minion-based deck (like, say, Zoo...)

LOL - that happened to me with Hireek too; really is a bad deck.

I cruised up to 12.3 with the deck I mentioned above. Now I have gone on an inexplicable losing streak and am back into the 14s. I love me some Warlock, but might need to switch over to Mage or Priest for a bit. Or maybe even Hunter -- that new here is so overpowered it defies words.

hsreplay.net/replay/4qdxgVLKhaFubApw9nspvN

So, I gave in and scrapped some neutral stuff that I'm probably never going to use and made a Clutchmother. After trying a few games with the Infernal, it just wasn't useful and I ran into too many situations where Clutchmother, like Jeklik, would be amazing. The above is one of those games. It's a slow Dragon Priest using Surrender to Madness; the dev team's response to the useless ball of dust that is Lady in White: "See, handbuff really sucks but what we'll do is make deckbuff the new thing for some slow class! Which class has almost no option to play tempo at all? Hmmmm.... Oh, yeah! Priest! I mean, Keleseth works, right?" Yes, Keleseth works. For rapid, minion-based, tempo decks. You know, the kind that Priest can't play because it has no tempo-based class cards, no good early minions, and is dependent on slow, fat-assed dragons for any kind of minion deck. He also doesn't destroy your mana crystals with each play, putting you that much farther behind. So awful. /rant

Anyway, it was control vs control. I'm fine with dumping the Coin to Reckless or Shriek. This deck's curve is actually pretty low for a control deck and I don't need to make a lot of swing plays, since it's mostly about dumping my hand into the ether to get to a point where Imps grind the opponent down. Plus, with Soulwarden, there's always the chance I'll retrieve it in a later turn where I could really use the mana boost. On his turn 4, he's clearly about drawing cards, dropping Acolyte and Cleric. I immediately drop a significant amount of resources to minimize the threat of constant card draw, using Demonfire to burn the Cleric and then using Shriek (and Howlfiend) to finish her. It ensures 2 cards off the Acolyte, but he was going to get that, anyway. At that point, I took a stab at some face damage, since it was going to be turn 5 and I figured he probably didn't want to spend 40% of his mana on getting more off the Acolyte, especially since he'd fallen behind tempo (see: Overload, except permanent) with the Madness.

But then he topdecks the other Cleric and I have to get rid of it. Doomguard was good to me, tossing Zavas and the Felhound. Then the other Acolyte comes down and I'm denied my 5 to the face again, but Soulwarden drops and- look! -there's the Coin again. And another Zavas. He's still just tossing things from hand, so he's not in any hurry to play any of the Madness-buffed minions he may have drawn, which is fine by me. Cue topdeck of 4/5 Chain Gang. I Soularium into a Shriek and thought for a bit about how I could save my bigger guys, but couldn't figure it. Plus, I wanted at least two cards tossed to the Soularium to finish my quest and get started grinding. Lana'thel ends up being the single fatty on the board, which he might not be able to remove... except for maddened Scaleworm. Meh. I drop quest and Reckless away another Zavas. The game is in my favor.

But he has the answer! A 5/5 Duskbreaker! Yes. You do. But I have a taunt and am about to have another who remarkably tosses both my Zavasesses. Oh, and total control of the board with demons hopping all over. But he has the answer: another Duskbreaker! Sure. He also Madnesses again, putting him even more turns away from dropping whatever big dragon is in his hand to power those Breakers. My other Soulwarden arrives and I play another Felhound to keep my Dreadlord rolling. This one isn't quite as precise, tossing my third Zavas and the poor Howlfiend again. I still have total command of the board and can play a 4/4 and two 6/6s next turn with 4 mana left over. A lifesteal minion gets Soulfired to minimize its impact and I play the 2 mana 8/8. And I tap, just in case I need some response to yet another lifesteal or the unwritten text on Surrender to Madness gives you access to Greater Healing Potion, because that would totally make it worth it... The other Soulfire is a perfect draw. Works like a charm.

In an update scheduled to arrive December 19 PST [that's, uh, today; quick turnaround this time], the following cards will be changed.

Developer’s Note: This balance update is focused on improving the long-term health of both Standard and Wild. We've opted to make these changes earlier in the expansion cycle than we normally consider; we'd like to hear your feedback on the timing of this update, in addition to what you think of all the individual card changes.

Wild Growth – Will cost 3 mana. (Up from 2)
Nourish – Will cost 6 mana. (Up from 5)
Wild Growth and Nourish have been present in every mid-range, combo, and control Druid deck since their introduction in the Basic and Classic set. When cards from the Basic and Classic set are too powerful, they can have negative long-term effects on the game. Continuously playing against these cards can start to feel repetitive, and they can feel so mandatory that they stifle creative deckbuilding decisions. By increasing the mana cost of both cards by one, we expect them to be considerations in late-game control Druid decks, but more difficult to fit in strategies that don’t directly take advantage of ramping mana.

Level Up! – Will cost 6 mana. (Up from 5)
Odd Paladin has consistently been one of the most powerful and most played decks since its introduction in The Witchwood. By removing Level Up from Odd Paladin, we still expect it to be a competitive board control deck, just with more consistent damage output that should be easier to play around.

Saronite Chain Gang – Now reads: Taunt. Battlecry: Summon another Saronite Chain Gang.
Shudderwock brings an interesting combo to the table, but playing Shudderwock multiple times in a single game can be frustrating. Changing Saronite Chain Gang makes playing multiple Shudderwocks in a game much more difficult. Shudderwock should now exist as a powerful one-turn effect rather than constantly copying itself with Saronite Chain Gang’s Battlecry.

Leeching Poison – Will cost 1 mana. (Down from 2). Now reads: Give your weapon Lifesteal this turn.
We love the fantasy of building a powerful weapon over the course of a game with Kingsbane, but granting it a permanent Lifesteal effect with Leeching Poison resulted in an endgame with few weaknesses, as well as conflicting with our philosophy that Rogues should not have persistent self-healing effects. Making the Lifesteal effect only active for one turn should address some of the power level issues with Kingsbane Rogue’s late game.

I think those are decent changes. I didn't see Shudderwock as that prominent a threat, so I wonder if that change is about upcoming cards, as well as reducing the omnipresence of Saronite Chain Gang. That card appears in every kind of deck, aggro to control to combo, because it's so useful. Does it mean that Keleseth-buffed Chain Gangs now no longer carry the buff?

Jackwraith wrote: In an update scheduled to arrive December 19 PST that's, uh, today; quick turnaround this time

HAHA, I know what prompted this: The unchanging nature of this list before and after the release of 135 new cards. You can make a case for it not changing across 270 cards. Someone's pissed.

I think those are decent changes. I didn't see Shudderwock as that prominent a threat, so I wonder if that change is about upcoming cards, as well as reducing the omnipresence of Saronite Chain Gang. That card appears in every kind of deck, aggro to control to combo, because it's so useful. Does it mean that Keleseth-buffed Chain Gangs now no longer carry the buff?

Shudderwock is on the outs, if only because Rogue and Paladin are so fast. If you nerf them it will move back to the top of the heap without a change. This makes Saronite less attractive for Soul Infusion Warlock too. Definitely won't keep the Keleseth buff on the other Saronite (it's not a "copy" anymore, it's a 2/3 Taunt.)

I am totally pleased with this. I never played those decks and I hated playing against those decks. They were so boring and felt unfair.

Right. Like I said a week ago, the VS report was rather blatant in its disdain for Rumble, specifically, but the last two expansions, in general, for their lack of impact on the top decks. And as I've mentioned, while I think these changes will help, Witchwood isn't going away for another year-and-a-half, which means that design will be caged by the odd/even problems until then. Yes, Odd Paladin just took a huge hit but you know what another really good deck is? Even Paladin, which just gained one of the best cards in the class. Yes, Even can't use either Lost or Vinecleaver, so the deck will never be as good as the unchanging monolith that was Odd, but it can still spit out Dudes on every single turn. Oh, and there's nothing that the devs can do about this problem without making all good cards so ridiculously expensive that no one will play them in anything but high-end control and combo decks... which is exactly the problem they have now (i.e. no one plays the new cards.) It's a dual issue: Knights and Kobolds cards are far superior to anything released since, except for Genn and Baku, because of what they enable. They're slowly solving the first problem (and will be relieved of it in Standard in four months) but not the second one.

Incidentally, the Saronite change also puts a stake right through Paladin Val'anyr decks. Chain Gang was the best (only?) reason to play that overcosted, ineffective weapon. Handbuff still sucks.

I did a little digging and this moves Druid into a tie with Hunter for the "Most Fucked Up at 1.0 Launch" Prize. Seven of nine heroes have had Basic/Classic cards nerfed since the 1.0 release, so this counts only changes made after the Beta (no 8-mana Pyroblast, for example).

• Hunter: Hunter's Mark, Flare, Bestial Wrath, Starving Buzzard, Eaglehorn Bow, Unleash the Hounds
• Druid: Wild Growth, Nourish, Innervate, Ancient of Lore, Force of Nature, Keeper of the Grove
• Warrior: Fiery War Axe, Execute, Charge, Warsong Commander
• Rogue: Blade Flurry, Master of Disguise, Conceal*
• Mage: Mana Wyrm, Ice Lance*, Ice Block*
• Warlock: Power Overwhelming*, Soulfire
• Shaman: Hex, Rockbiter Weapon

*Nerfed so hard they just took them away.

Those Hunter changes seem quaint now. Nostalgia.

Left alone? Priest and Paladin! They've seen plenty of Expansion cards nerfed, but the core sets of the shittiest classes remain as shitty as ever. #nicework

Jackwraith wrote: I think those are decent changes. I didn't see Shudderwock as that prominent a threat, so I wonder if that change is about upcoming cards, as well as reducing the omnipresence of Saronite Chain Gang. That card appears in every kind of deck, aggro to control to combo, because it's so useful. Does it mean that Keleseth-buffed Chain Gangs now no longer carry the buff?

They're certainly decent changes, but what I don't get is how they've left Hunter alone. Not so much that it's overpowered necessarily (time will tell), more that I suspect the meta is now just going to be wall to wall Hunters. Secret Hunter is about the only deck I'm playing right now.

Hunter still allows for interactive games, for the most part. You know they'll try to make four Wolves, you know they want to set up DK Rexxar clears, and so forth. The decks that got nerfed were either utterly one-dimensional (Odd Paladin could and often would utterly ignore your board and just swing at your face, knowing they could reload instantly if you ever did anything), or were so overpowering in the late game that you had no hope once they got there, which for Druid usually meant turn 6. I wonder what the stats on turn 6 Ultimate Infestation were. That is a thing I have seen happen and the game is fucking broken when that's a doable thing.

In my experience as a Hunter, it's work. I need to manage the board, which my Hero is notoriously bad at, and I need to make it to late-game where my ridiculous Alts can swing things. I think you can teach a chicken to play Odd Paladin.

Rogue was always very thinky for both players, but I think the idea that Rogue could just endlessly facetank everything struck them as a little ridiculous. That's not a very thematic experience.

Matt's point was exactly what occurred to the Reddits as soon as the nerfs were announced, especially since both Odd Paladin and various Druids were solid answers to current Hunter. I get that it may take work for Hunters to manage the board, but that's become far easier with all of the early game they have (weapons, Springpaw, Wandering Monster) and then the instant late game they have (Spellstone) and the real issue, which is Zul'jin. That card is broken, yo. I seriously can't count the number of games I've watched, be they Kibler or MacDirk just last night, where Zul'jin utterly transformed the board. It always goes from the Hunter in a medium or weak position to winning the game with one card. Remember the Christmas tree of Mysterious Challenger? Well, it's back, and right on time, too. By turn 10 last night, MD's opponent had cast two Companions, three Secrets, and a Spellstone. With the two Secrets still in play when Zul'jin arrived, that gave him the full tree and a full board with 5 4/3s, a 2/4, and a 5/4. From one card. The one 3/3 he had in play was killed by a Flanking strike which gave him another one. Random targets!

And, sure, if you're Control warlock or Dragon Priest who's managed to draw the two cards that can save you (Hellfire, Duskbreaker), great. You played around it! But it also robs the opponent of agency. When Zul'jin was played, there was nothing MD could do. There were 5 secrets up, all of which have deleterious effects if he chose to take any action against his opponent or his minions, short of a particular type of board clear. Just like with many decks against Jaina, once the DK is in play, you might as well give up and move on to the next game. There's such a ridiculous contrast between the hero cards that are game enders (Gul'dan, Jaina, Zul'jin) and those that can actually be interacted with (Anduin, Rexxar, Valeera, Garrosh, Boom, Malfurion) and those that have little to no value in most circumstances (Thrall, Uther, Hagatha; Shaman has two!) They spent a year-and-a-half trying to create a card set where Uther actually had value other than as a hedge for Paladin control decks (but still not as good as Equality-Pyro!) and then they release a hero card like Zul'jin which is instantly successful because it's ridiculously OP, even if you're playing a minion-based deck without many spells. Getting 5 armor, the ability to use Steady Shot on any target, whatever secrets you've cast, Spellstones, and a couple Companions for 10 mana is still more than worth it.

So, yeah, my sympathy for Hunters right now isn't particularly high.

I'm not here to say Zul'jin is fair. It's not, it seems really weird that Blizzard would print this, given the craziness of Yogg. This is like a Yogg where you know it's all good stuff. I like your breakdown of the Alt Heroes too. Shadowreaper Anduin was on the high end too, when Raza was a thing. It's still very good, and obviously can make for huge swings, but it's not essentially game-ending anymore at least like Gul'dan and Jaina. Gul'dan and Zul'jin (and Yogg) break the fundamental rule of "players should have to pay for things." In small doses, it's solid, like Kirin Tor Mage pooping out a Secret. But when they bolt it onto a 10-cost card, they somehow think that effect needs to scale to "give back" like 30 mana in effects.

Did we ever work out how much Ultimate Infestation should cost? Roughly, we can use other cards as a guide...
5 Armor = 1 Mana (Iron Hide)
5 Damage = 3.5 Mana (Fireball is 6 for 4)
5 Cards = 7.5 Mana (Nourish + Arcane Intellect is 8, Sprint is 7)
Vanilla 5/5 = 4.5 Mana (Yeti++)

~16.5 Mana in effects for 10 Mana in costs. Probably more like 17 or 18, given it's all in one card, &c. That's an amazing deal and folks hate to be on the receiving end of that card. Gul'dan can bring back a couple Voidlords, and some other Demons, and it's routine to see 25-30 mana in creatures come back out, plus the Armor. Ridiculously good. Zul'jin fetching 7 Armor, along with three Secrets, Animal Companions, maybe a Deadly Shot or two, you easily score 20+ in effects for 10 mana. You don't need to wonder why this is popular.

In other news, Odd Mage is pretty fun right now. I've dealt 8 with my Hero Power twice in three games.

I like the Odd Mage deck, especially with the new legendary that brings back Rag. That's a cool thing that hearkens back to out of Standard cards but still retains the modern Elemental theme AND isn't oppressive as a deck. I think Mage has had some really interesting design in the past few sets. It just hasn't produced at the level that they've expected, partially because the class has been in transition away from "Never play creatures" to "Play like other classes, even if spell-heavy." It's tough to make that transition in short order (Witness Frozen Shaman. Or don't witness, really.) but I think they've done a solid job of getting there.

And, yes, I totally agree that UI is out of order. It will gradually fade over the next few months as Druid ramp dwindles. No one will ever play Wild Growth again, but Nourish is still a great card because of its versatility. It's just no longer a "Why would you ever not play this?" (like Equality-Pyro!) card.

Had an entertaining game last night against a Boom deck (mechs, Molten Blade, Fledgling, Frothing, Leeroy.) Jeebus, Soulwarden. It's almost singlehandedly made discard workable. The same Doomguard and the same Shriek both got discarded twice. Didn't matter. Got'em back. Went to work.

hsreplay.net/replay/hKAmP3tmgpGVAEW4XzYM73

jeb wrote: I'm not here to say Zul'jin is fair. It's not, it seems really weird that Blizzard would print this, given the craziness of Yogg. This is like a Yogg where you know it's all good stuff.

Yep, had that exact same thought when I saw it. Like, you already nerfed this once, why print it again? I crafted one immediately, of course, and it's so stupid that often, by the time it gets to pushing out Flanking Strike, the only things left on the board for it to hit are your own minions.

Jeb and I got a Battle of the Targaryens in yesterday. It was Dragon Priest vs (Even) Dragon Paladin.

"What??!", I hear you thinking. "Dragon Paladin?! That trash hasn't been seen since Dragon Consort and it never worked then." Right. And they've only piled on in recent sets with trash cards like Cathedral Gargoyle, which had no reason to ever see play, given the efficiency of decks like Odd Paladin, which can throw a torrent of Dudes at you for virtually no cost, completely obviating your bubbled Taunt guys. But now, Odd Paladin isn't quite as prevalent and Druid, the other class that laughs at your bubbles, is absent. So maybe it'll work...? Dunno. Been trying it out recently and have yet to lose a game, so...

hsreplay.net/replay/vnta8dSRb4RCagXddpqS65

Right away, I'm rolling my eyes at my own misfortune. I have seven dragons in the deck and my opening hand is three cards dependent on them for value. But the key to Even Paladin isn't the glut of Dudes that Odd could spew out. It's just the constant presence of them. Every time you have a spare crystal, make a Dude. Meanwhile, Jeb had the ultimate value draw: both Duskbreakers, a Primordial to power them and follow them up, and a Cleric who makes my Dudes a near liability. Things looked dark for Uther. I make a Dude. He drops a Cleric. Hrm.

On turn 2, still without a dragon, I have two options: Keep tempo and lose the value of my Witchdoctor and/or Gargoyle or gut it out. I wasn't sure which kind of Priest that Jeb was playing, so I wasn't sure just how much advantage he'd derive from the Cleric. If it's Mind Blast/Velen or Spirit/Fire, I'm in trouble. But, if not, I can probably endure while I wait to get something from my dragon-dependent cards. I decide to wait and see what happens. He kills a Dude and gets the draw, which would've happened, anyway. Turn 3, finally, a dragon arrives. I drop the Garg. He's still going to get another draw, but now my board can't be Spirit Lashed away in the process, which would've been the case if I'd left it as a vanilla 2/2. Oh, and, make a Dude.

He gets the draw AND another one with PWS. Now I'm thinking. One of the key moments of my deck is using Ebon Dragonsmith to lower the cost on Silver Sword. I can do that here, but I'd rather take one of my options to get rid of the Cleric. You don't have to panic about Priest card advantage, but you don't want it to run wild, either. One option is Truesilver, which leaves me with a not very threatening board. The other option is Scaleworm, which can be hugely threatening. I opt for the latter, clear the Cleric, and get some facetime in. Of course, once I pass the turn, I notice how nicely I've set myself up for Duskbreaker...

Right on cue. OK. Load up a Truesilver to remove it, make a Dude. At this point, Jeb doesn't have any great moves. He could play a Witchdoctor to contest the board, but I can just remove it with the Truesilver. But it would get him another card... Instead, he keeps tempo by dropping the Cobalt, which I promptly remove with Truesilver and Dude and play my own Witchdoctor. The choice presented is simple. The Paladin spellstone remains awful (I don't even play them in my healing deck, which isn't competitive.) Blessed Champion is a combo card that costs way too much. Plus, Wrath is good against Priests who are adept at staying a point or two away from lethal. Then I play the Ebon to cut the cost of my Silver Sword. It's not timely, but it's still helpful.

Jeb draws into a couple things with Witchdoctor and Visions and then plays the Spirit Lash to keep from burning a card. That gives me the chance to make a Dude and play the Sword (Order! I can't count the number of times I've played Tarim and THEN made a Dude...) and finally put some pressure on. The second Duskbreaker cleans up some and another PWS makes him mildly annoying. Since there just aren't that many little threats in Dragon Priest, I decide that it's worth tossing a Consecration at one minion, remove it with the Sword and keep my guys buffed. The god-dragon draw continues as the Primordial comes down to stop me in my tracks.

But I'm at 9 mana now, which means I can play another bubbled thing, make a Dude, Steed a Saronite beyond trading range, and take another swing with the Sword to keep that pressure on. Jeb still has massive card advantage, but he's at 11 and I have the board. So, Psychic Scream is the only proper answer. Fine. Here's Arthas and a Dude. Death Grip isn't the greatest result but, hey, maybe it pulls me a dragon. Twilight Acolyte foils my easy win plan and then Jeb does some cleaning with Pyromancer. Necessary? Dunno. But I can sympathize with the idea of wanting to do something to remove Arthas ASAP before I get a really good Lich King card (like Frostmourne or Anti-Magic Shell.) I get a Cleric, make a Dude (Order!), and play Tarim; still one of the best Paladin cards ever made. Facetime continues.

Jeb uses Holy Fire and his guys to reduce the board as much as he could. I was just watching that life total. On two mana, there's a couple Priest spells that would put him past lethal, but if all he did was hero power...? And that's all he could do. Six on the board and Wrath for the win.

i still doubt the deck is really competitive, but I've beaten a few Hunter decks, so who knows?