Trashdome - Cosmic Encounter VS Magic: Gathering

Mad Dog wrote:

A while back someone posted two Aliens that let you play with a 6th player without needing anything extra.

Zilch or Shark. Each is a bit gimmicky, but they're both fun (Zilch is actually a blast to play).

Links:

Shark

Zilch

This is a tough one. But I gotta have balls and come down on one side or another.


Cosmic...I haven't played it much, but I really enjoyed when I did play it. It must have been quite the radical depature from what people were used to when it came out. It made a bunch of rules and then broke them all. I need to pick up the new version from FFG.


BUT


Magic was once like an opium addiction for me. Even when my cardpool was small I would fidget and tweak and compile as many decks as I could. We had all-night Magic sessions where we'd all smoke like three packs of cigarettes. We had house rules and variants and deckbuilding contests. We'd trade for hours on end.

I'd go to comic stores just hoping they sold Magic. If they had singles--HOO BOY.

I went to tournaments and conventions. I spent four hours at one convention doing nothing but trading.

I would come up with deck ideas and write them in my notebook. I can't count how many pieces of paper you'd find that would be all like:


4 x Juzam Djinn
4 x Dark Ritual
4 x Hypnotic Specter


and on and on and on...


It was all consuming. It kept me tethered to gaming during a time where I could have easily just faded away from it forever. I made friends playing Magic, I learned new ways to game playing Magic. I'd travel two hours just to play a handful of games, if that's what it took.


Magic revolutionized the gaming industry. It single-handedly created a new genre of gaming. It's still standing even after all the "Me Too" clones came pouring in droves and got their carcasses carried away with the tide.


For me, there's no question.


VOTE: Magic

If you put Magic and Star Wars CCG up against each other, I'd just pull out a gun and shoot myself.

You can also just play six with beer mats and quarters, if you don't mind using the wild destiny cards for the sixth player.


The easiest way to defuse the cost arguments of Magic is "play proxy Magic". You can now do anything you want with the game, it's totally open. Well anything except swing your dick at a tournament. For a lot of people, that's a big deal.

Magic has really splintered into lots of different play styles, which can attract a lot of different people, I think.

But I still like cosmic better.

Vote: Cosmic Encounter

I'm not into CCG's, I've never played Magic, I love the new FFG edition of CE and I'm an FFG fanboi, yadda yadda.

[chuckle] And if the Magic guys lose this one, there's gonna be a whole lotta pouting. [/chuckle]

Shellhead wrote:

Great point that people should be voting on the games themselves, and not meta-game aspects like hygiene of the players. However, I think that it is absolutely relevant to mention the cost of playing Magic for two reasons. First, game price is always a reasonable factor to mention, because some games are over-priced and other games deliver a great value. Second, a fundamental aspect of Magic and all the other CCGs is that your ability to spend money on the game is an integral aspect of the game itself. All other things being equal, the player who spends more money on cards will have a clear advantage in the game. So a player who is less willing or able to spend on cards will find less potential enjoyment in the game.

Yeah it's difficult to surgically separate the spending and playing. Spending money is simply part of the Magic experience. In general, I consider the "game" to be the whole damn experience, not just the rules, components and mechanics. Some people say Cosmic has a strong negotiation metagame, but otherwise "there's not much game there." Or Talisman is strong on theme but (again) there's not much game there. Clearly they're both weak 7s. I say no, it's all part of the game experience! Negotiation is part of Cosmic and theme is part of Talisman.

If I want to play Magic I will have to sit there by myself sifting through hundreds or thousands of cards and build a deck. There are other options like premade decks or shared cards, but they never appealed to me. I once constructed decks for some friends who wanted to try the game and it just wasn't as fun. I felt almost like I was playing against myself. When one guy beat me with my goblin deck it didn't feel like he won. And that's the only way I'm able to play these days, because no one I know would ever want to build a deck or buy cards.

If I hypothetically tried to meet some new MtGers (which I have no desire to do) and play without spending, I'd have to get acclimated to the new environment - there's about 7 years of cards I'm completely unfamiliar with - and build decks according to popular strategies and card types. Last time I seriously played was in 2002, after a 6 year hiatus, when Elf decks were all the rage. Man was the environment hugely different. I even felt that many of my mid-90s cards were wimpy in comparison to newer stuff. (I sold all the Power 9s and other valuables.)

So, whether or not it's all part of the game, I don't want to deal with all that bullshit when I have other great games on my shelf, most of which I've played far less than Magic.

Hmm. Makes me wonder why I still have cards.

NeonPeon wrote:

Hmm. Makes me wonder why I still have cards.

Put em in the FAT Math Trade! I know I'd trade a game for some cards =)

It was already said but it should be repeated, you can spend very very little on Magic and get a metric fuck ton of cards if you want. You can also play the tournament game and spend lots of money on very few cards.

How many of you CE voters are voting on it with only vanilla original CE with no expansions and the cheapest bits in mind?

How many races do you need to play CE? How many of you would be happy to see more and more of them coming out as has been the case over the years?

I seem to recall a whole lot of bitching about the AH version for not having enough races or "expansion" material in the box. So clearly the "base" CE experience is a lot less than the fancy, more expensive one.

Magic is still amazing without having to buy lots and lots of stuff but of course can potentially benefit from putting more money into it, just like CE. Of course there is a difference of scale but the concept is exactly the same.

How many of you CE voters are voting on it with only vanilla original CE with no expansions and the cheapest bits in mind?

I'm going from the standpoint of the FFG edition, which is all I've played.

Yeah, but MtG players still smell like BO and clog up my local stores.

My CE vote stands firm, never mind the fact that I don't even know how to play Magic.

Bear in mind, Matt, that I'm on your team on this one...but...

How many of you CE voters are voting on it with only vanilla original CE with no expansions and the cheapest bits in mind?

The game is great even if it were drawn on notebook paper with just the core game elements available.

How many races do you need to play CE? How many of you would be happy to see more and more of them coming out as has been the case over the years?

As many as there are players, no more. If you wanted to run long with it, I could see a base of 20 aliens being all you need for a lifetime of good gaming. More makes the game better, of course, but it doesn't need them to be great.

I seem to recall a whole lot of bitching about the AH version for not having enough races or "expansion" material in the box. So clearly the "base" CE experience is a lot less than the fancy, more expensive one.

I know people who actually prefer the stripped-down AH version. The fact remains- the base game is what makes it so awesome, not the additions. That's just gravy on the biscuits, so to speak.

No fucking contest here as far as I'm concerned.

If M:tG is still attracting new players 16 years from now, maybe it'll have a shot. As it stands, Cosmic Encounter is one of the very few niche hobby games that, after 30+ years, simply refuses to be shunted off to OoP obscurity. In this industry, that's saying a hell of a lot, and it managed to do this despite the fact that you won't find CE cards at the front counter of your local grocery store.

Vote: Cosmic Encounter

From here on out, I will personally kick a puppy every time someone votes for M:tG.

But every time somebody votes MTG, a puppy will kick MJ. A puppy with iron shoes.

Part of the problem with the CCG model is that a CCG always needs to continue adding cards or else the game grows stagnant. That isn't true of the best boardgames, including Cosmic Encounter.

Michael Barnes wrote:

But every time somebody votes MTG, a puppy will kick MJ. A puppy with iron shoes.

You sadistic bastard. Putting iron shoes on a puppy...

Vote: Magic the Gathering

I have played many CCGs. I have about 60 MtG preconstructed decks, which is the only way I play this specific game. Every year my friend and I run a swiss tourney for the decks within a given block (this year is Time Spiral).

Cosmic is a fine game.