Trashdome - Marvel Heroes VS Marvel Heroscape

MARVEL HEROES Hands down. No contest.

Michael Barnes wrote:

I think Maka is going to stab somebody if MARVEL HEROES goes down.

Heh Don't worry... I'm actually surprised at the support MH is getting...

kookoobah wrote:

Maka, my main beef with MH is that it abstracts the characters too much. Hulk doesn't feel very different from say The Thing, or even Jean Grey for the matter. Sure, if you really dissect it, you might see how they are different, but isn't visceral, it doesn't hit you like a solid punch to the gut -- which is how I think superhero games should be. I shouldn't have to carefully analyze why Wolverine is actually different from Spiderman.

Marvelscape does this way way way better.

Sure the combat system may be elegant, but it doesn't feel like much of a superhero fight.

Well... I never said elegant... In fact the core of the combat system is more complex than the one from Marvelscape (from what I've read).

I've read many complains about the powers being too abstract, and I guess that's just a question of preference... To me they're just right because they add enough flavor to the characters while adding a lot of interesting decisions to the combat system. Between the differences between ready/support heroes, the different hero/power combinations and the allies and other supporting cards, there are really many ways to approach a fight (with more/less risks and possible rewards) and this adds a lot of variety to the combat system.

How would you make them less abstract? Reach across the table and punch the guy? You roll some dice no matter what. What's the big deal?

Almalik wrote:

Marvel Heroes needs to play the FFas written, none of this idiotic "official" FAQ crap with Reed and Sue neutering Dr. Doom. Sue cancels dice after you make your re-rolls, not before.

Preach on!

Never played Marvel Heroes.

Heroscape in one of my all time favorite games.

But fuck Marvel Heroscape. It's a shitty cash in that takes almost all of the fun out of Heroscape and never ceases to piss me off in my wonderment of how they manged to so badly fuck up what should have been an easy home run. They give you no terrain, a totally unbalanced point/strength ratio between figures, not even a hint of the tactical considerations in regular HS (and it's not like regular HS is deep) and no interesting senario possibilities. Plus, what a shitty mixed bag of characters. (They really need to put out an X-Men figure set). The only redeeming quality in the game is that some characters work in regular HS and more terrain is always great.

I weep for the poor kid who gets MHS as their first foray into the Heroscape universe and they end up saying fuck this shitty game, never to enjoy the wonder of a real master set.

Vote: Marvel Heroes

kookoobah wrote:
"That's true... if by neutered you mean pumped full of super-soldier serum."
By neutered I mean, lacking the terrain variety of Heroscape; it's crying out for a modern building pack a la Fortress of the Archkyrie. And it could do with lots of cop / army / minion dudes for superhero fodder.
MattLoter expresses parallel sentiments in the post above, albeit rather more coloufully.

Michael Barnes wrote:
"Won't somebody think of the children? No child wants to play MARVEL HEROES, and it may very well make the baby Jesus cry. MARVEL HEROSCAPE brings joy to the children of the world, much like Michael Jackson but with less inappropriate touching."
You did vote for Marvel Heroscape, I had to double-check there. Playing the topical MJ card to rally the votes is kinda ambiguous.

I weep for the poor kid who gets MHS as their first foray into the Heroscape universe and they end up saying fuck this shitty game, never to enjoy the wonder of a real master set.

See? The poor kid, as in one. How shitty does a board game about super heroes have to be to draw less interest at department stores than Apples to Apples?

I'm going to have to throw my vote to Marvel Heroscape primarily because of what a letdown Marvel Heroes was.

The first game of it I played it I got to watch the Hulk destroyed by Toad. That just ain't right.

mrmarcus wrote:

I'm going to have to throw my vote to Marvel Heroscape primarily because of what a letdown Marvel Heroes was.

The first game of it I played it I got to watch the Hulk destroyed by Toad. That just ain't right.

Yep. That probably ain't right...

Toad has either 2 or 1 die for attack, but in order to use 2, his defense drops to 0. That's an automatic win for Hulk unless Toad has managed to get the initiative the round before.

Toad can only use his yellow ratings (1-3-1) hoping his defense will hold and trying to get lucky 2 times with his attack. considering Hulk can use his red ratings (5-4-1) without fear until he's got 1KO left (he starts with 3), the chance of Toad surviving, let alone damaging Hulk twice is extremely slim.

Then if he has managed that and also has managed to steal the initiative (also very hard with just 1 outwit), he can switch to his red ratings, which will increase his attack to 2, but as his defense becomes 0, he's practically dead at that point unless he scores the third hit. Considering Hulk's minimum defense is 3, and the Hulk player at that point would probably switch to orange ratings with a defense of 5. The chance of Toad winning is extremely small.

So the chance of Toad surviving 3 rounds, let alone damaging Hulk 3 times is so slim is pretty much impossible unless supporting cards were used, but then it wouldn't be JUST Toad defeating Hulk... and even then the probability is still very, very small...

Are you sure there were no mistakes? First games of MH are usually filled with rules errors...

maka wrote:

First games of MH are usually filled with rules errors...

The most damning thing yet said about the game, imo.

"The most damning thing yet said about the game, imo. "

Well.... considering 99% of Ameritrash boardgames have exactly this same "problem" I can't see how this can be considered damning at all.

And even if no actual rule mistakes were made, a first time player is likely to make strategy mistakes during combat, which would increase the chance of Toad winning vs. Hulk. If you consider this also to be a problem with the game, I wonder, what AT games are you playing? Most AT games I've played need a few plays before the players understand the game enough to play it well...

maka wrote:

"The most damning thing yet said about the game, imo. "

Well.... considering 99% of Ameritrash boardgames have exactly this same "problem" I can't see how this can be considered damning at all.

And even if no actual rule mistakes were made, a first time player is likely to make strategy mistakes during combat, which would increase the chance of Toad winning vs. Hulk. If you consider this also to be a problem with the game, I wonder, what AT games are you playing? Most AT games I've played need a few plays before the players understand the game enough to play it well...

I agree. Arkham Horror is my favorite game, and despite my familiarity with the original version, we got a number of things wrong at first:

*Kept moving after whacking monsters in the street.

*Discarded monsters if they were at the location of a gate that was just sealed or closed.

*Jumped in gates without fighting or evading monsters at that location.

*Treated Overwhelming and Nightmarish as an automatic loss of an additional point.

*Traded clue tokens.

maka wrote:

"The most damning thing yet said about the game, imo. "

Well.... considering 99% of Ameritrash boardgames have exactly this same "problem" I can't see how this can be considered damning at all.

I'd say the opposite. I haven't had a problem learning 99% of AT games on the first play. I usually chalk up the first game of anything as a learning experience, but you wrote "games" as in it takes multiple plays to figure out the rules. I would think a Marvel game could be a big seller with kids, but most won't stick with it if they can't play it correctly even after trying a couple times. That's why I consider that a damning statement for this particular game.

maka wrote:

mrmarcus wrote:

I'm going to have to throw my vote to Marvel Heroscape primarily because of what a letdown Marvel Heroes was.

The first game of it I played it I got to watch the Hulk destroyed by Toad. That just ain't right.

Yep. That probably ain't right...

Toad has either 2 or 1 die for attack, but in order to use 2, his defense drops to 0. That's an automatic win for Hulk unless Toad has managed to get the initiative the round before.

Toad can only use his yellow ratings (1-3-1) hoping his defense will hold and trying to get lucky 2 times with his attack. considering Hulk can use his red ratings (5-4-1) without fear until he's got 1KO left (he starts with 3), the chance of Toad surviving, let alone damaging Hulk twice is extremely slim.

Then if he has managed that and also has managed to steal the initiative (also very hard with just 1 outwit), he can switch to his red ratings, which will increase his attack to 2, but as his defense becomes 0, he's practically dead at that point unless he scores the third hit. Considering Hulk's minimum defense is 3, and the Hulk player at that point would probably switch to orange ratings with a defense of 5. The chance of Toad winning is extremely small.

So the chance of Toad surviving 3 rounds, let alone damaging Hulk 3 times is so slim is pretty much impossible unless supporting cards were used, but then it wouldn't be JUST Toad defeating Hulk... and even then the probability is still very, very small...

Are you sure there were no mistakes? First games of MH are usually filled with rules errors...

No, we played it right. Hulk rolled terribly. Toad rolled fantastic.

mrmarcus wrote:
No, we played it right. Hulk rolled terribly. Toad rolled fantastic.[/quote]

Similar stuff has happened in comics, thanks to heavy-handed writing. For example, Spider-man beat up Firelord, a herald of Galactus.