Next step on my way of becoming the incarnation of Anti-Americanism

MattDP wrote:

Ken B. wrote: Unfortunately Matt, I wouldn't hunt down and kill my food either; that's what I pay other people for. If they're ok with that and make their living from it, I think that should also make it ok.

We may be misunderstanding one another. I'm not saying that I think there's anything wrong with paying other people to get your meat. I'm saying there's something wrong with paying other people to do it if you don't think you'd be emotionally capable of doing it yourself.

Put it another way. Could you visit a slaughterhouse, watch it in action and come away still happy to tuck into a steak at the end of the day? If so, great. If you couldn't, then I call double standard.

And I call cognitive dissonance. Either way, I'm ok with it.

I've seen videos of slaughterhouses in action, so I guess that counts, right?

Again, I promise though, it doesn't matter. Even if I'm a hypocrite, meat is too much of an important part of my diet that I'm not giving it up. More power to anyone who can.

MattDP wrote: Put it another way. Could you visit a slaughterhouse, watch it in action and come away still happy to tuck into a steak at the end of the day? If so, great. If you couldn't, then I call double standard.

I don't think this line of thinking can hold. I probably couldn't stomach a lot of things that I pay others directly or indirectly to do. Though I haven't really put myself to the test too much, my list might include garbage collection, bathing and caring for certain for extremely ill folks, doing anything involving heights (like fixing telephone wires, constructing buildings etc). Each of us probably has a few of these kind of examples. This suggests that few of us can tolerate doing everything we need done in our society. So, if such "double standards" are unavoidable in a society rather than chosen, then they have little or no moral consequences. The only moral consequence is about sufficiently appreciating (and paying for) the unglamorous work that few people are willing to do.

Hatchling wrote: I don't think this line of thinking can hold. I probably couldn't stomach a lot of things that I pay others directly or indirectly to do.

No. It's not about what you can stomach it's about what you can cope with emotionally, and where the end product is going. Taking out the trash might make you sick, but you can do it, you'll cope, and it won't leave you with emotional scars. And, if you had to, you could wander out to a landfill site to kick some stuff around and sure, it'll make you sick, but you'll still go home and throw your milk cartons in the bin without a second thought.

When it comes to killing animals I could not do that, unless I was starving. I could not kill an animal and watch it suffer without feeling guilty about it. I could not butcher it without being sick. I could not - and this is the really important bit - eat the remains.

A lot of people can, and that's fine. What annoys me is when meat eaters see an advert about some TV documentary investigating the terrible conditions on factory farms and say things like "oh I couldn't watch that. It'd put me right off my chicken drumsticks".

I watch a good documentary on horse slaughterhouses in Canada and haven't eaten horse since. I watched an even better documentary on pig slaughterhouses in the States and still eat pork. I thought it was exceptionally humane how the pigs are treated. I'm told to not watch beef slaughterhouses cuz it's pretty rough. I really enjoy steak so I won't watch.

The same documentary that showed the pig slaughterhouses showed chicken ones too which was pretty rough (not so much the slaughterhouse but how the chickens are treated beforehand). It made a great case for organic farming (cuz they showed a regular farmer just basically grabbing some big fat happy chickens and flipping them upside down, beheading them without a second thought. Seemed very humane and such.

I dunno, so far, it's only horse that I'm turned off on from what I've seen. From what I've HEARD, I've stopped eating foie gras but I didn't really like it anyway so that's no big deal.

Steve Weeks wrote: Vegetarianism, gun control and feminization of men is all part of the plan for a massive government takeover and shift to socialism/communism.

If men are weak, they cannot fight back.

You just can't build up muscle chomping on a celery stick.

www.flickr.com/photos/vegetarians-domina...aters-01/5057552725/

Animals kill and eat each other in the wilds all the time. As humans, we're animals who have no had any notable evolutionary changes from when we were living in caves eating grubs. It's just nature. If people want to go vegetarian, whatever. But taking the moral high ground on it is just passive aggressive dickishness, and I really don't give a damn.

As a side point, many people who have no reaction to humans being killed, maimed, or tortured on TV/movies throw a fit when an animal is killed. Hell, a coworker of mine didn't give a shit about news reports of civilians (including children) killed in a war but was flipping over stories of seals being hunted for fur and meat in the same newspaper.

Black Barney wrote: [...] flipping them upside down, beheading them without a second thought. Seemed very humane and such. [...]

You cheer me up.

MattDP wrote: I'm saying there's something wrong with paying other people to do it if you don't think you'd be emotionally capable of doing it yourself.

Only eating meat you kill yourself is a fad in the U.S. right now. It's the new vegetarianism.

S.

MattDP wrote:
This is just flat-out wrong. Vegetarians decide what's "worthy" and what's not based on suffering, and the judgement is quite clearly based in science. On a basic level animals are clearly concious and have nervous systems which are capable of experiencing pain and possibly more subjective emotions such as fear and regret. Plants do not. Ergo one cannot eat meat without causing pain to living organisms, whereas you can eat plants.

I've never bought this line of reasoning. The chemical reaction that happens in soil is very complex and not completely understood. Trees, for example, can communicate over very long distances. All plants send out bizarre electrochemical signals when they die or are threatened. These are not fully understood but they are very complex. The idea that sentience is directly related to a nervous system us just that... an idea. All life is worthy of respect.

A nervous system is something we can easily relate to but that doesn't mean it's more reliable as a system to determine a creature's rights as a living being. Death and potentially pain are part of the eating process. Not only am I comfortable killing what I eat myself... I feel better about it. Mind you I've been doing it for 30 years. That animal has honored me with it's sacrifice as does every plant I consume. I respect that and attempt to be as careful about wasting it as I can.

As a side point, many people who have no reaction to humans being killed, maimed, or tortured on TV/movies throw a fit when an animal is killed. Hell, a coworker of mine didn't give a shit about news reports of civilians (including children) killed in a war but was flipping over stories of seals being hunted for fur and meat in the same newspaper.

Beautiful post! Post of the century!

SaMoKo wrote: As a side point, many people who have no reaction to humans being killed, maimed, or tortured on TV/movies throw a fit when an animal is killed. Hell, a coworker of mine didn't give a shit about news reports of civilians (including children) killed in a war but was flipping over stories of seals being hunted for fur and meat in the same newspaper.

My wife is like that. We saw some awesome movie on one of the world wars a while back and during the big retreat at Dunkirk, they start shooting the horses so that the Germans won't be able to use them. My wife starts crying like crazy but only 20 minutes earlier a bunch of young school girls all got gunned down and no reaction from her on that one. It's kinda funny.

When we see homeless people, she'll only make a comment if one of them has a dog. "oh, that poor dog". Man, that guy looks like he hasn't eaten since Diefenbaker and the dog is probably the happiest dog on the planet since he gets to spend 24/7 with his master. I got two huge dogs at my house who are borderline neglected since baby was born.

JonJacob wrote: I've never bought this line of reasoning. The chemical reaction that happens in soil is very complex and not completely understood. Trees, for example, can communicate over very long distances. All plants send out bizarre electrochemical signals when they die or are threatened. These are not fully understood but they are very complex. The idea that sentience is directly related to a nervous system us just that... an idea. All life is worthy of respect.

A nervous system is something we can easily relate to but that doesn't mean it's more reliable as a system to determine a creature's rights as a living being. Death and potentially pain are part of the eating process. Not only am I comfortable killing what I eat myself... I feel better about it. Mind you I've been doing it for 30 years. That animal has honored me with it's sacrifice as does every plant I consume. I respect that and attempt to be as careful about wasting it as I can.

You keep arguing that point but it's silly. If you eat 500 lbs of meat you also kill 10 times that amount in crops (which was used to feed the animal). And then you're still ignoring the adverse effects on the environment that lifestock habituation has. I believe that question of quantity is a meaningful one, unlike in other moral issues, because humans can't survive by eating rocks.

Then again, if everything we eat lives, and you make no difference between cow and tree, do you still restrain yourself from eating another human being? If so, why?

Again, I didn't decide to become vegan out of ethical reasons, but if you tell me eating a pig and eating a potato are the same thing I can't help but wonder what you've been smoking lately.

By the way, I have just cooked and eaten some very tasty vegan Kaiserschmarrn (with apple sauce and without sugar).

My German is rusty but doesn't that mean Kindergarden student?

And if it is, I don't know how you can do that without sugar.



oh and I agree that making a moral point against eating vegetables is kinda crazy

Black Barney wrote: My German is rusty but doesn't that mean Kindergarden student?

That would be a Kindergartenkind.

Kaiserschmarrn is what you get when you try to make an omelette or pancake and fail.

oh right, I've had that in Austria before. It was (you guessed it) AWFUL.

I got an Austrian colleague at work and I was telling him how awful his country's cuisine is in general. But coming from Irish heritage, saying that I'm throwing potatoes from a glass thatched-roof cottage would be an understatement. BLECH