Batman Kickstarter (w/discussion of FOMO sales method)

Michael Barnes wrote: But I would not buy a Cadillac sight unseen, and I didn’t buy any CW before it was released and available. Because that was an option this campaign doesn’t have.

Many people had to buy Cthulhu Wars, sight unseen, in order for you to get your review copy. That game never would have happened without Kickstarter. That alone, should ease up your disdain for the platform.

charlest wrote:

Michael Barnes wrote: But I would not buy a Cadillac sight unseen, and I didn’t buy any CW before it was released and available. Because that was an option this campaign doesn’t have.

Many people had to buy Cthulhu Wars, sight unseen, in order for you to get your review copy. That game never would have happened without Kickstarter. That alone, should ease up your disdain for the platform.

Oh come on Charlie, that's bogus. Ten years ago Cthulhu Wars would have gotten a shot through a traditional publisher. That whole "only you can make our dream come true" thing is just part of Kickstarter's PR package.

If a million people want to purchase products that they have no information on that's their business, but you can't pretend it rewards quality. It's about as inefficient a way as possible to do that.

I honestly don't think it's bogus. I could definitely be wrong, but when I interviewed Sandy Petersen a couple of years ago we talked pretty heavily about this. He felt very candid and I believed him when he said this was a last ditch effort to get his game made and they didn't expect it to suceed. He talked about taking it to publishers but they wouldn't print it with minis that big, and it was his dream game and what he wanted to make. They didn't think Petersen games would take off and he was contemplating returning to the mobile game development business, which he wasn't ecstatic about.

I'm not pretending it rewards quality. I'm saying quality games come from Kickstarter and sometimes they require backers to make them happen. I have a lot of respect and love for Michael, but I think it's hypocritical to fall in love with Cthulhu Wars and proclaim it as one of your favorite games after receiving a review copy, while simultaneously railing against the platform and those consumers who made that game exist. His comments have an air of "I'm smarter than these idiots who put up money" when his risk was non-existant because he snagged a review copy - I don't think Michael intends it to sound this way but it does.

I don't love Kickstarter. I'm not sure I'd disagree with the sentiment that the hobby would be better off without. I often defend it here, mostly because I feel like I'm in the anti-Kickstarter equivalent of a right wing echo chamber. I'm also drawn to being a devil's advocate, even when it's unbecoming. But while Kickstarter's around I'm certainly going to enjoy its benefits.

Well, I’m not entirely convinced that a publisher wouldn’t have picked up CW. It is not like it is some kind of wing it, left field concept or a non-mainstream kind of design. It is absolutely marketable, and if I published games I would pick it up in a heartbeat. I am about 100% sure that Sandy Petersen never had any intention of compromising on the minis and therefore at no point did he have to stop and say “we’ve really got to consider production limitations.” So I think that doesn’t hold water, Charlie. There is no reason the game could not have been published by a traditional publisher with less extravagant miniatures. It could have been a $100 retail title, sold in normal distribution, and I think it would be 10x more successful and it would likely have been a significant release rather than a niche-y Kickstarter. I think it could have had a positive impact on the industry. But obviously, there was more money to be made by Mr. Petersen going through crowdfunding.

One thing that has always bothered me about CW is that the miniatures are the ONLY extravagant element. All of the cardboard is actually LOWER quality than what you’d see in an FFG or Z-Man game. The boards, the tokens, the gate tiles, etc. are actually kind of garbagey. The graphic design, aside from the box illustrations, is just about DTP quality. If this were put out by FFG, you’d see an overal higher level of quality even if the minis were not as good.

And if it were an FFG game, it would be something everyone would be talking about and it would have a much wider player base. In part due to lower cost.

But do you trust FFG to make that many vagina monsters?

There is also an undeniable satisfaction to dropping a monster the size of a coffee mug into someone's territory.

Michael Barnes wrote:
One thing that has always bothered me about CW is that the miniatures are the ONLY extravagant element. All of the cardboard is actually LOWER quality than what you’d see in an FFG or Z-Man game. The boards, the tokens, the gate tiles, etc. are actually kind of garbagey. The graphic design, aside from the box illustrations, is just about DTP quality. If this were put out by FFG, you’d see an overal higher level of quality even if the minis were not as good.

To be fair, that has been improved significantly in the 2nd edition and is being further improved in the 3rd edition.

C'mon, now.

"These impressed me not just with their size, but also their detail and the implication that these were toys meant to be played with. In addition to these incredible pieces, the game is also packed with scads of great-looking monsters and cultists for each of the four included factions. Nightgaunts, Byahkees, Hunting Horrors, Deep Ones, Fungi from Yuggoth- if you know these names, you’ll be thrilled to hold these pieces in your hands."

"The miniatures, if you can call them that, do actually impart a sense of grandiose, cyclopean theater to the game and I would not want them to be reduced or replaced by less extravagant components."

" I appreciate the heart and soul of this game, I value that Mr. Petersen in some sense regards it as a culmination of his life’s work in games."

Sure, just reduce the minis. You can play Warhammer with tokens too.

Why not release a modest version of the board game through traditional means...then just run a KS campaign for the big ass monsters to us as an option for those that wanna upgrade?

seems win-win....for consumers.

More money to be made the current KS way though, so that way it goes.

I like this discussion. I think the main problem right now is that because a dream game like Cthulhu Wars makes it, it causes people like me to think that similar games released by him will be as good. Instead, it gave Mr. Petersen a huge ego and the later games have not been good but all the risk is on the backer and I "lost" money and time. There was so much that any normal publisher that must mitigate risk would have done to those games. When you remove risk mitigation from the publisher, that's just not good for the consumer.

I would even argue that hundreds of dollars of material from all the Cthulhu Wars Kickstarter is a waste because of sloppy i.e. sandbox design but I got suckered into it anyhow cause of my own stupidity.

I'm not pretending it rewards quality. I'm saying quality games come from Kickstarter and sometimes they require backers to make them happen. I have a lot of respect and love for Michael, but I think it's hypocritical to fall in love with Cthulhu Wars and proclaim it as one of your favorite games after receiving a review copy, while simultaneously railing against the platform and those consumers who made that game exist. His comments have an air of "I'm smarter than these idiots who put up money" when his risk was non-existant because he snagged a review copy - I don't think Michael intends it to sound this way but it does.

That’s fair and accurate- I had zero risk, and I get where you are coming from that I sort of carpetbagged on other’s risk. But I also wound up spending something like $400 to buy expansions, so it wasn’t a free ride at all.

I don’t think anyone is dumb for spending their money however they see fit. But I do think the “need” for Kickstarter is bullshit- especially when we are talking about a game like CW, Batman, or Harry Potter. It makes sense for Dungeon Degenerates. It would make sense for Felli’s games, actually, but he’s got the balls to put it on the line. It makes sense for obscure, niche, or esoteric subject matter or games with extremely limited appeal.

In CW’s case, all hat Kickstarter really enabled was the ridiculous miniatures, which the game does not absolutely need. It also enabled the ability to publish everything at once. Think about this. The game could have been traditionally published with more industry standard miniatures. It would have sold gangbusters. Then, a Kickstarter for “deluxe” miniatures for it would have made total sense. Expansions could have naturally followed without burdening the consumer with a $700 up front cost.

Hey, I like the miniatures and if it were an add-on purchase to buy the big ones I totally would go for it. They do add everything I stated there, and I do think that as part of the overall CW experience they matter. But on the other hand, most game players would have been satisfied with FFG quality pieces, especially if that meant the difference between being able to buy the game or not. The game design is strong enough that it doesn’t absolutely have to have them.

Stonecutter wrote:

Michael Barnes wrote:
One thing that has always bothered me about CW is that the miniatures are the ONLY extravagant element. All of the cardboard is actually LOWER quality than what you’d see in an FFG or Z-Man game. The boards, the tokens, the gate tiles, etc. are actually kind of garbagey. The graphic design, aside from the box illustrations, is just about DTP quality. If this were put out by FFG, you’d see an overal higher level of quality even if the minis were not as good.

To be fair, that has been improved significantly in the 2nd edition and is being further improved in the 3rd edition.

I had the 2nd edition upgrades- they weren’t much better.

So by what, 5th edition they’ll be FFG quality?

I'm not sure at all it would have sold like gangbusters. There are quality games coming out that dont' take off at all. Battle for Rokugan, a new Tom Jolly area control design from FFG, has received some rave reviews and praise from purchasers, but it hasn't taken off in the slightest and will be forgotten in 6 months. It doesn't have minis or any sense of wow factor.

Mr. White - have you seen this thread: boardgamegeek.com/thread/1320175/why-doe...dang-much-confession

I'm betting you guys are calling bullshit?

I don't fundamentally understand why you guys think Petersen had an obligation to make a cheap version of the game so that it could go retail through standard channels. If you believe he did not have this obligation, then you probably would admit that Kickstarter was a necessity to get the game produced, right?

Another example is Kingdom Death Monster. No way a publisher would pony up for the GW-quality minis in that game.

7th Continent is another game where the creators discussed taking the design to standard publishers and they wanted them to strip the game down. This is a game about exploring an island -content - and they felt the experience would be compromised (which from my experience playing the game, is likely true).

Mr. White wrote: Why not release a modest version of the board game through traditional means...then just run a KS campaign for the big ass monsters to us as an option for those that wanna upgrade?

seems win-win....for consumers.

More money to be made the current KS way though, so that way it goes.

Because the miniatures alter the feel of the game and experience, as Michael professes in his review and most people who have played the game will agree.

charlest wrote: I'm not sure at all it would have sold like gangbusters. There are quality games coming out that dont' take off at all. Battle for Rokugan, a new Tom Jolly area control design from FFG, has received some rave reviews and praise from purchasers, but it hasn't taken off in the slightest and will be forgotten in 6 months. It doesn't have minis or any sense of wow factor.

Sag - have you seen this thread: boardgamegeek.com/thread/1320175/why-doe...dang-much-confession

I'm betting you guys are calling bullshit?

I don't fundamentally understand why you guys think Petersen had an obligation to make a cheap version of the game so that it could go retail through standard channels. If you believe he did not have this obligation, then you probably would admit that Kickstarter was a necessity to get the game produced, right?

Another example is Kingdom Death Monster. No way a publisher would pony up for the GW-quality minis in that game.

7th Continent is another game where the creators discussed taking the design to standard publishers and they wanted them to strip the game down. This is a game about exploring an island -content - and they felt the experience would be compromised (which from my experience playing the game, is likely true).

Charlie, I think a lot of your argument is really sound, but this particular post seems to imply that it's necessary for games to have really big miniatures to stand out at all these days. Is that an implication you meant to make, or am I reading into your post?

I don't disagree with that assertion, but if that's true this hobby will truly leave me behind. I just don't have the space or the money to continue in the arms race that publishers are committed to running. That's a real bummer if production is what makes games memorable anymore.