FFG putting the stake in Terrinoth, but still rolling with other stuff

All you’ve got to to do is look at recent -GOOD- FFG titles to see how low they are sinking. Runebound 3rd Edition is brilliant. Legacy of Dragonholt is a miracle. Fallout was a great take on the otherwise tired adventure game genre. Keyforge was a great design, completely waylaid by its own transience and disposability.

But balance this against ANOTHER Arkham Horror game, ANOTHER Star Wars game, ANOTHER “butter scraped over too much bread” LOTR game, ANOTHER LCG...and the fact that some of their best releases...aren’t actually FFG in-house designs. Here’s a list of some of the best FFG releases:

Cosmic Encounter
Dungeonquest (revised)
Fury of Dracula
Talisman
Warrior Knights
Nexus Ops (despite the ghastly production)
Borderlands (despite the ghastly steampunk setting)
Wiz-War
Netrunner


Hmm. The best original FFG designs are mostly from 10-15 years ago.

Arkham Horror is the new Munchkin, it’s a shame. They keep jettisoning or abandoning the things they do best for more variant TIE fighter minis and endless LCG treadmilling. They’ve got the Marvel license, but so what- what they are doing looks like the same licensed superhero junk there has always been. I’m surprised the card text isn’t in comic sans FFS.

We always joke about the FFG holiday sale, but seriously, when your company is putting out trash that can’t sell through retail distribution and you are fire selling it out just a year down the road, what is that telling you as a publisher?

Tannhauser...ha ha! Who would even think that is ever going to come back.

The problem is that this is a company with tent pole products that most likely -vastly- outsell it’s second tier range. It’s a simple matter of economics to develop those high margin, high volume products rather than the riskier, less mainstream ones. But this is exactly what happened to Steve Jackson...Munchkin everything.

FFG is completely irrelevant at this point. There was a time when they were the industry leaders, full stop. I think CMON and the Kickstarter mills put an end to that- who’s excited about Descent when there are 20 games like it with more minis and more “stuff” on KS every day? Their raison d’etre now is Star Wars and Arkham Horror, and now Marvel with some degree of Keyforge in there. All of which I’m sure delights the Game Center crowd, but outside of that and some GenCon hoopla I don’t see anything they are doing generating excitement.

So many deflated, overhyped junk releases...Battles for Westeros- ha ha! And the weird way Battlelore was handled. The whole Discover fiasco. Runewars miniatures...they must have paid Bell of Lost Souls tons of money for their glowing previews and where is that game now? They did the same thing with Legion...I have yet to see anyone play it, I’m sure there is someone out there.

As much of an ass as Mr. Petersen could be...he had vision and brought a spirit of leadership to the company. Without him, they are just the Star Wars/Arkham Horror arm of Asmodee.

I think those great in-house FFG games you’re referring to hit hard when they came out, but I’m also pretty sure that you and I are not clamoring to get them back to the table now. Thats not to say there aren’t people who are, I’m sure the “AT games are still alive and kicking!” crowd are still willing to put themselves through BSG and Runewars, tedium, messy design and all. Those games were impactful, they have their place, but gamers of a certain taste, myself included and I’m pretty sure you as well, have moved on. I want a game that values my time a little more, gets me to the heart of the experience with a whole lot less of the boring, sloppy stuff that’s there more for window dressing than anything else.

I actually think that their most recent output, which tend to do more with a good deal less, will age better than what came out during what most would consider “the golden era.” Civ New Dawn, Runebound 3, Rebellion (which I know you had issues with but the expansion really is so good), those games are the ones I will likely be more inclined to pull off the shelf in 6-8 years. I think about BSG, Arkham Horror 2, Runewars, my eyes totally glaze over.

That’s just me though. Those newer games definitely don’t feel like as much of a big deal or an event like the old ones were, and several of them obviously did not sell.

Michael Barnes wrote: Their raison d’etre now is Star Wars and Arkham Horror, and now Marvel with some degree of Keyforge in there. All of which I’m sure delights the Game Center crowd, but outside of that and some GenCon hoopla I don’t see anything they are doing generating excitement.

I doubt that I’ll convince you that Fantasy Flight matters as innovators, but I’m having the hardest time squaring this argument with your “This is the best GW game ever,” line from the past two years. GW’s entire raison d’etre is Warhammer, 40K and Lord of the Rings and every release from them is “It’s 40K but street gangs! It’s 40K but airplanes! It’s 40K but mechs!” That’s not a leap from “It’s Star Wars but dogfighting! It’s Star Wars but capital ships! It’s Star Wars but skirmish!”

If you don’t like the games for themselves, that’s one thing. If you don’t like them because you’re tired of the setting, don’t pretend that disqualifies them from being important.

No single game can be a big deal anymore. Current announce rate is six a day.

Josh Look wrote: I want a game that values my time a little more, gets me to the heart of the experience with a whole lot less of the boring, sloppy stuff that’s there more for window dressing than anything else.

This is why I say Battlelore, 2nd Ed. was one of the best things they ever did. There's a massive amount of replayability. It drops you right into the combat. The system is variable with the battle decks that can be changed to suit the player and your army composition. There is no dross. The game functions like a machine and does a much better job of representing the difficulty of command and the chaos of combat than the vast majority of wargames out there. I really don't understand why it didn't sell more than it did. Maybe the upfront costs were more than most people wanted out of a non-collectible minis game? But it came out in 2013. Cthulhu Wars came out 2 years later for considerably more expense and, as noted in this thread and a million times before, CMON and KS demonstrated how willing people were to pay for minis. Maybe FFG killed it off because they wanted to focus attention on Runewars?

The game plays fine as is. I just wish it had lasted long enough to make a Latari army so that you could play all four factions from the Runewars board game.

I'll just echo Barnes's point about Tannhauser. That was a shockeroo. When it shuttered, I recall that they said they weren't necessarily done-done, but it's been, what, five years anyway, and they fire-saled all their old figures. But it's essentially a game that's failed twice--once with a French publisher and once with them--so I can't see what they're thinking there.

And someone said Armada is dead. It actually isn't. I went on record saying I thought the Super Star Destroyer mega-mega-mini was meant as joke, collectible, and swan song, but they have two more ships forthcoming.

This is an interesting conversation. Legion and X-wing are my two most played games. I live in Minnesota so maybe the proximity to FFG effects things, but X-wing is going very strong, and the new edition is excellent, I am looking forward to the release of the new epic rules (including streamlined wing rules).

I also have friends who are into Armanda.

So I don't see FFG as irrelevant. I'd rather read about their miniature games than another shitty ruleset from GW.

Jackwraith wrote: This is why I say Battlelore, 2nd Ed. was one of the best things they ever did . . . I really don't understand why it didn't sell more than it did.

BattleLore is neither fish nor foul. It's a wargame that doesn't appeal to wargamers because of its fantasy theme, a fantasy game that doesn't work for fantasy fans because it's a straight-up wargame in nature. It had a very thin market to appeal to even if it did very well.

I just don't find that narrow application argument valid. You're telling me that people who played Warhammer Fantasy (high fantasy, miniatures, total wargame) wouldn't find Battlelore appealing? Or that people who like playing something like The Others (fantasy/sci-fi, miniatures, skirmish/combat game) wouldn't? I think that's a stretch. There was a market there; not least among players of the previous version of Battlelore, which is still pretty highly regarded.

This discussion has made me want to look at 2nd Edition BattleLore...Seems like it is all OOP and gone now though. Anyone have a line? I can get the Base game for $35-40 but everything else is nowhere.

Josh had a great point- no, I don’t want to play those old FFG “golden years” games anymore. The whole FFG _style_ established in that era isn’t something I’m interested in at all, and that style is really the genesis of many Kickstarter games today. You’ve got all of these folks that came up through games with that style trying to mimic it, and the result is a lot of clutter, a lot of junk design.

A lot of voices, not just here, think Battlelore 2nd is a forgotten gem. I remember So Very Wrong about Games opining on the subject.

I kind of lost interest in Command and Colors games, is why I didn't pay attention, but my understanding is battlelore 2nd (vs. 1st) has tremendously important changes to the Command and Colors system formula. The Westeros one is supposed to be good too?

Sagrilarus wrote: No single game can be a big deal anymore. Current announce rate is six a day.

Twilight Imperium Fourth Edition was (and still is) a big deal, at least 'round these parts. I see it being played often and I know many people who own a copy, even though multiple copies of a game like that within a group of friends is fairly nonsensical.

I don't see FFG as being irrelevant at all. They've just moved from essentially the monopoly on epic thematic games to much more of a niche publisher. Likely a savvy business decision when you think about how saturated the market is with epic thematic games right now (many are lackluster but several are spectacular). Do their products still appeal to me personally as much as they used to? No, but my personal tastes aren't the arbiter of what is or isn't relevant to an international hobby that includes a myriad of sub-hobbies (including LCGs and Star Wars minis).

Is there someone here who believes that their personal opinions determine absolute truths for the international hobby? No need for the passive aggressive posturing, just say “Barnes, you’re wrong”, jeez.

Gary Sax wrote: A lot of voices, not just here, think Battlelore 2nd is a forgotten gem. I remember So Very Wrong about Games opining on the subject.

I kind of lost interest in Command and Colors games, is why I didn't pay attention, but my understanding is battlelore 2nd (vs. 1st) has tremendously important changes to the Command and Colors system formula. The Westeros one is supposed to be good too?

The Westeros one sucks. It was over-complicated and boring. But I do like the BL2 app version.