Ameritrash Championship: Dune vs. Cosmic Encounter

JonJacob wrote: I wouldn't put either in the top 5. But I'll go with Dune because I can choose who to attack all the time and it's more of an event. Cosmic can hit the table more often which is all the more reason to be more excited about a night of Dune.

It's also much less abstract then Cosmic, although both are pretty abstract, and if I'm voting best AT game of all time that is a big deal.

Yeah, Space Hulk would've been my choice had I my druthers. You can argue that Cosmic is too abstract, and you can argue that Dune can only be played by a certain amount of people with a certain mindset, not to mention its complexity....

Space Hulk is what pops into my head when someone says Ameritrash, not Dune.

C O S M I C

This is a Beatles/Stones thing, really. But Cosmic is the winner, because Cosmic is the best game ever designed. It's also one of the most important and influential. But more significantly, it's the most fun game ever designed. It has a perfect mix of interactivity, emergent gameplay/emergent narrative, variability/volatility, drama, and surprise.

Sure, playing Dune is an event...but if you're playing with the right people every game of Cosmic -even if it's weekly- is an event.

There's also one or two too many conditionals about Dune as written...but Cosmic is as close to a flawless design as there's ever been.

Win-win, either way.

Slight nod to CE, I guess, as it requires no knowledge of a particular setting. Not that Dune does, either, technically speaking, but knowing the story from at least the first book really adds some depth to an already fun experience.

Vote: CE.

Dune (the book) has a special place in my heart, but this is still an easy choice.

Cosmic Encounter

DUNE!!! Notice, it's not Rex vs Cosmic Encounter here...

Cosmic Encounter is certainly the better game, was really impressed by playing it for the first time. Wanna vote for Dune cos I like Dune soooooooo much (both themewise and gamewise), but in my heart I know Cosmic Encounter is the better game.

Vote: Cosmic Encounter

Arrakis... Dune... Desert Planet.

People of Earth: We are all about theme here. CE is crazy fun. Even if/when it goes fucking nuts. But the theme is absent. It's just a pile of powers. "Oh, I am a Mutant Macron. What are you?" When sitting down to play Dune, there's no ambiguity. Er, well, no more than is implied in the book.

There was a time playing Dune when I've made a strategic choice that mattered more in the context of my character than in the context of winning the game. I have only seen that in a few other games (BSG and AgoT, but it wasn't me in either case there) and certainly not in CE. CE's metagame is exclusively a function of whom you are playing with, and really has nothing to do with the game itself. Dune, for me, is the more complete experience.

jeb wrote: People of Earth: We are all about theme here. CE is crazy fun. Even if/when it goes fucking nuts. But the theme is absent. It's just a pile of powers. "Oh, I am a Mutant Macron. What are you?" When sitting down to play Dune, there's no ambiguity. Er, well, no more than is implied in the book.

Theme is overrated. Me, I'm all about fun. Interaction. The ability to have a dynamic experience in a game. Dune provides all of those things, but Cosmic Encounter does all of them better. The only argument for Dune over Cosmic is Herbert's setting. That's not an invalid argument or a bad reason to vote for Dune, but everything else about Dune that's awesome was already in Cosmic Encounter. And Cosmic Encounter is a much more flexible, dynamic, exciting game.

San Il Defanso wrote:

jeb wrote: People of Earth: We are all about theme here. CE is crazy fun. Even if/when it goes fucking nuts. But the theme is absent. It's just a pile of powers. "Oh, I am a Mutant Macron. What are you?" When sitting down to play Dune, there's no ambiguity. Er, well, no more than is implied in the book.

Theme is overrated. Me, I'm all about fun. Interaction. The ability to have a dynamic experience in a game. Dune provides all of those things, but Cosmic Encounter does all of them better. The only argument for Dune over Cosmic is Herbert's setting. That's not an invalid argument or a bad reason to vote for Dune, but everything else about Dune that's awesome was already in Cosmic Encounter. And Cosmic Encounter is a much more flexible, dynamic, exciting game.

Don't make me get kanly up in here.

CE is a fun beer and pretzels kind of game, but I still like a lot more meat on my plate. Dune has theme, and it has enough narrative to immerse me into that theme. CE is good for laughs, but at the end of the night it's just as empty as an experience as any fluffy euro like dominion or ticket to ride.

As some people used to complain around here, sure you know you've played CE, but will it be a memorable experience years down the road? Will you ever say "remember that one game we played in 1995?" I can do that with Dune. With CE, not so much.

jeb wrote:

San Il Defanso wrote:

jeb wrote: People of Earth: We are all about theme here. CE is crazy fun. Even if/when it goes fucking nuts. But the theme is absent. It's just a pile of powers. "Oh, I am a Mutant Macron. What are you?" When sitting down to play Dune, there's no ambiguity. Er, well, no more than is implied in the book.

Theme is overrated. Me, I'm all about fun. Interaction. The ability to have a dynamic experience in a game. Dune provides all of those things, but Cosmic Encounter does all of them better. The only argument for Dune over Cosmic is Herbert's setting. That's not an invalid argument or a bad reason to vote for Dune, but everything else about Dune that's awesome was already in Cosmic Encounter. And Cosmic Encounter is a much more flexible, dynamic, exciting game.

Don't make US get kanly up in here.

Fixed that.

And Theme ~DOESDOESDOES~ matter. I can prove it.

Take Space Hulk.

Remove Marines. Insert Elmer Fudds.

Remove Genestealers. Insert Bugs Bunnies.

Remove Grim, awesome artwork. Add fields with flowers and whatnot.

Now tell me that it's as much fun, even if the gameplay is THE EXACT SAME, as being a God-Emperor of Mankind's chosen warriors aboard a floating egg-ship loaded with some of the most deadly xenomorphs in the known universe.

Yeah, thought so. I dare you to lie and say that the FuddHunter would be as much fun. Because you WOULD be lying.

Chapel wrote: CE is a fun beer and pretzels kind of game, but I still like a lot more meat on my plate. Dune has theme, and it has enough narrative to immerse me into that theme. CE is good for laughs, but at the end of the night it's just as empty as an experience as any fluffy euro like dominion or ticket to ride.

As some people used to complain around here, sure you know you've played CE, but will it be a memorable experience years down the road? Will you ever say "remember that one game we played in 1995?" I can do that with Dune. With CE, not so much.

I still recall the time me and a friend were playing (He was Harkonen and I was Atreides) and we had a grand mal melee. When we showed our leaders we both screamed, "TREACHERY!"..... and a lot of people went to the tanks. CE? First time I played in a long while was at Trashfest. I remember playing as the Shadow and winning... That was about it.

Of course theme matters. I said it's a perfectly legit reason to vote for Dune, didn't I? But it's far from the ONLY thing that matters. Dune wins the theme competition, but that's the only place where its the clear winner. Everything else that it does well, Cosmic does better.

And I've had plenty of epic, memorable games of Cosmic Encounter. They may not have fancy words like "Sardaukar" in them, but they were among some of the best game sessions I've ever had.

DUNE


I play CE more, and i appreciate that it's a tighter design, but this the crown of AT, not tight game design or accessibility, and AT is undefined.