CMON's KS Hubris and Cthulhu and Madness

It's just another company who has tapped into a Bernaysian marketing plan which fosters a feeling of absolute need via tugging on the dual strings of "Don't Miss Out! Limited Time Only" and "Don't you want to be a part of the club?"

I ~WISH~ I was as good at playing large groups of people as CMON. The whole industry, kickstarter or no, has been doing this shit for decades. It's not a Kickstarter problem, it's a cultural problem. The "Got to be on a team" culture ensures that the gamers will HAVE to be buying shit constantly to not be a benchwarmer on "The Team". They want to be able to meaningfully participate with other people and not get the "what, you mean you've never played X" side-eye from the rest of the people at the table. I shit you not, it's all a psychological game, and I've been studying it for a decade now.

When I do my Kickstarters, just make sure you don't shit on me.

The bottomline is that this is all catering to the lowest common denominator.

Specifically, our lizard brain and limbic brain. KS cuts right through our neocortex defenses and pierces us in a vulnerable spot.

Or lizard brain is compulsive. It's main drive is the continuance of our genes, by only worrying about food, death, fucking, and anything that helps or hinders these operations within ourselves. We want to be part of the social hierarchy because high social level often equals better chance of survival. Being part of the team, being able to keep up with the jonses, these things spark that lzard brain into gear. But other things such as addiction match responses just as strongly, and why addictions, are, well, addictive and so hard to beat.

Then you have the limbic system tied to our emotions. The hope of being able to have an epic game day and by spending $300 on this hunk of garbage, get the pay off our lizard brain demands.

But here's the trick to avoid being taken advantage of by those in marketing who use simple tools that result in powerful effects of your baser instincts and emotions. By recognizing how your being manipulated is the first step, and rebelling against such influence or control with a strong "Not today, fuckwads!" attitude.

In the case of KS, if youre allowed to pledge a buck and have access to the pledge manager, then pledge the buck and decide later once the ridiculous hype machine has died down to a trickle. Like, the day before the pledge manager closes.
If you still feel you want/need it by that point, then your making a rational decision with the help of the previously bypassed neocortex. And whether you later regret it or not, at least you were better prepared to make a sounder decision.

I find all the “early bird” crap and the artificially “limited” backing tiers to be especially galling. It’s all psychological trickery. They “sell out” at $200, and then open a new tier at $205. So people freak out and back at $205...to save $5 when that tier sells out and a new one opens. That’s about as manipulative as it gets.

So now everybody thinks this Cthulhu statue- which does have a major gameplay element built onto it- is in limited quantity. And you’ve got to buy now because supplies are limited and all of that. But it is a Kickstarter exclusive, so if you don’t get it, you’ve either missed it or you are paying twice as much down the road.

At least when GW releases a $100+ Miniature, I know it will be around for 10 years and will never go up in price. You never have to buy it now unless it is something they are specifically doing limited quantities of, and then if you preorder it comes the next week- not two years from now.

That's my beef, really. The psychological manipulation. I back stuff on KS, here's a couple:
www.kickstarter.com/projects/fangamer/flip-grip
www.kickstarter.com/projects/mattbors/ea...-the-best-of-the-nib

Make a good thing and I will buy it. The complaint by most folks here is this just does not seem very good. The sculpt looks clumsy (Reminds me of that weird thicc GODZILLA), the game is standard fare compared other options. I guess it's huge. But I feel like FOMO is driving the market here and that's just preying on weakness.

So we're back to a "what's wrong with Kickstarter" thread. Nothing's wrong with Kickstarter, they're a Point of Sale system and not much else. I propose we set them aside.

Here's the thing I'm looking at in all of this. A couple of years back Ares Games sold these things via Kickstarter --



Those are about 15 inches across, and you have to move them around the table. They don't sit still. You need a huge table just to have them make a turn to the right let alone have them turn a full 180. They're just plain stupid. They are the white elephants of Wings of Glory, and every bit as absurd as this Cthulhu thing (likely twice as fragile and harder to transport). $70 apiece, and they funded with a butt-ton of room to spare. I didn't back because . . . well . . . I'm sane.

So this is not a first time round for this issue. There's other examples. But this time it's Cool Mini Or Not, which gets more attention. And frankly, the product they're delivering is of less quality, certainly appearance-wise and detail wise. Unpainted, it's more or less an unfinished product. But, there's plenty of absurdly big game components out there that people buy and enjoy painting.

The question becomes for me personally is this -- why are people getting outraged? I'm not talking about the kind of outrage here, I'm talking the outrage of "why are you forcing me to buy this pig in order to complete my collection?" Truth be told a trimmed down block of 4x4 would likely serve as a reasonable replacement. The real heart of the issue here is an obsession with components, not the fact that CMON offered a big product at a big price.

The big difference I see between now and 20 years ago is that now the thought of playing a game with anything other than the highest quality components is seen as a shameful act. That's the marketing trick that has been played. In 2000 you got "high quality" components meaning wood cubes in rich colors, thick cardboard with high color saturation and a clean, tight fit. That was doable by manufacturers for a reasonable price. With each passing year the publishers have been one-upping each other on expense and we've all gotten caught in the maelstrom it's produced, whether we're interested in it or not. That's the fundamental heart of my complaint with the industry right now -- they're not producing the product I want. I don't care about a six pound figurine or an airplane too big to store or transport. They're producing products for someone else.

It sells at a better profit margin, so I'm stuck with it. The days of Epic Duels quality are over.

S.

Sagrilarus wrote: So we're back to a "what's wrong with Kickstarter" thread. Nothing's wrong with Kickstarter, they're a Point of Sale system and not much else. I propose we set them aside.

Here's the thing I'm looking at in all of this. A couple of years back Ares Games sold these things via Kickstarter --

Those are about 15 inches across, and you have to move them around the table. They don't sit still. You need a huge table just to have them make a turn to the right let alone have them turn a full 180. They're just plain stupid. They are the white elephants of Wings of Glory, and every bit as absurd as this Cthulhu thing (likely twice as fragile and harder to transport). $70 apiece, and they funded with a butt-ton of room to spare. I didn't back because . . . well . . . I'm sane.

So this is not a first time round for this issue. There's other examples. But this time it's Cool Mini Or Not, which gets more attention. And frankly, the product they're delivering is of less quality, certainly appearance-wise and detail wise. Unpainted, it's more or less an unfinished product. But, there's plenty of absurdly big game components out there that people buy and enjoy painting.

The question becomes for me personally is this -- why are people getting outraged? I'm not talking about the king of outrage here, I'm talking the outrage of "why are you forcing me to buy this pig in order to complete my collection?" Truth be told a trimmed down block of 4x4 would likely serve as a reasonable replacement. The real heart of the issue here is an obsession with components, not the fact that CMON offered a big product at a big price.

The big difference I see between now and 20 years ago is that now the thought of playing a game with anything other than the highest quality components is seen as a shameful act. That's the marketing trick that has been played. In 2000 you got "high quality" components meaning wood cubes in rich colors, thick cardboard with high color saturation and a clean, tight fit. That was doable by manufacturers for a reasonable price. With each passing year the publishers have been one-upping each other on expense and we've all gotten caught in the maelstrom it's produced, whether we're interested in it or not. That's the fundamental heart of my complaint with the industry right now -- they're not producing the product I want. I don't care about a six pound figurine or an airplane too big to store or transport. They're producing products for someone else.

It sells at a better profit margin, so I'm stuck with it. The days of Epic Duels quality are over.

S.

I don't think this is completely true. If you look at Kickstarters that offer additional buys to upgrade components - stuff like plastic pieces replacing cardboard, those add-ons do sell but not to a substantial portion of backers (I judge this by discussion/comments as we don't have actual data).

You can see this with certain publishers like Plaid Hat and Portal also offering better components with preorders - they get some sure, but it's not a mad rush and there's no discussion of second-class citizens with those games (Starship Samurai and Detective are the two most recent examples of better components offered for direct preorders). Most of the discussion around these preorder component bonuses is "not worth the cost, just going to order from CSI or MM at retail and save money."

I'm not saying there's no truth to what you said, but I think it's more complicated than people realize. I also think many people don't give enough credence to the fact that gameplay often drives these add-ons, not simply components. Higher quality components and larger ones are included to justify a higher price typically, since we tend to value board games for what they include physically and not from the design work put into the product.

Remember when Cthulhu Wars minis were considered insanely huge? Having that box on my shelf honestly makes me wish they were smaller or tokens now. Price would be cheaper, box size more reasonable, and pieces would fit on the map better. I don't want components-first games anymore as I feel they aren't worth the cost in money and space compared to other games on my shelf. So I do feel okay calling out these huge KS projects because a) I can't afford them, b) they're unnecessarily overproduced, and c) they're setting precedents for more of the same in the hobby.
If other people want to buy and love them that's great and I'll play their copies. But I don't understand why people are chastised for being against buying them when we have reasons that are at least as valid as those who buy into them. Or why we're called anti-KS because we don't fall in line and back every popular project.

Most boardgames are manufactured in China, Kickstarter or not. It seems likely that the rapidly escalating trade war could have an impact on the cost of boardgames, and these components-first games might be especially vulnerable due to a greater reliance on materials. I wonder if current active Kickstarters might fall through if there is an unexpected jump in costs during production. Might be a bad bet to plunk down two or three hundred on a CMON kickstarter right now.

It's an interesting choice CMON made with the limited spots for each increment of the giant statue pledge. In their more recent Kickstarters they had moved away from early bird pledge spots, which seemed to gain them some goodwill within the community (?).

Knowing nothing about their backend calculations, I would have thought it would make sense to offer the status as a Kickstarter exclusive (to keep the FOMO alive and well) but have unlimited spots at $250, or whatever the magic number for them was.

All of the anti-KS arguments fail to address the Cthulhu sized statue in the room: consent.

While it can be argued that KS companies have done a robust job of marketing to game addicts, players, and collectors, the fact is that they didn’t create the market, they simply take advantage of the preconditions. People are consenting to this marketing by paying for it.

I, in my heart of hearts, don’t see any foul here. People with wallets full of money which may, arguably, be better spent on hoarding counseling are being handed over without any coercion. The publishers see a demand and create a supply to fill it.

I see no real difference between a gauche Cthulhu doll (1/16th scale) and Fireball Island or the latest GW terrain set.

Shellhead wrote: Most boardgames are manufactured in China, Kickstarter or not. It seems likely that the rapidly escalating trade war could have an impact on the cost of boardgames, and these components-first games might be especially vulnerable due to a greater reliance on materials. I wonder if current active Kickstarters might fall through if there is an unexpected jump in costs during production. Might be a bad bet to plunk down two or three hundred on a CMON kickstarter right now.

I have a hard time seeing Trump or China developing a board game tariff. Trump could enact an oil tariff and even that wouldn’t hurt the game market. Most of the really burdensome tariffs are on raw materials, not finished goods. But...that could change.

SuperflyTNT wrote:

Shellhead wrote: Most boardgames are manufactured in China, Kickstarter or not. It seems likely that the rapidly escalating trade war could have an impact on the cost of boardgames, and these components-first games might be especially vulnerable due to a greater reliance on materials. I wonder if current active Kickstarters might fall through if there is an unexpected jump in costs during production. Might be a bad bet to plunk down two or three hundred on a CMON kickstarter right now.

I have a hard time seeing Trump or China developing a board game tariff. Trump could enact an oil tariff and even that wouldn’t hurt the game market. Most of the really burdensome tariffs are on raw materials, not finished goods. But...that could change.

I was thinking more like a tariff on plastic.

ChristopherMD wrote: Remember when Cthulhu Wars minis were considered insanely huge? Having that box on my shelf honestly makes me wish they were smaller or tokens now. Price would be cheaper, box size more reasonable, and pieces would fit on the map better. I don't want components-first games anymore as I feel they aren't worth the cost in money and space compared to other games on my shelf. So I do feel okay calling out these huge KS projects because a) I can't afford them, b) they're unnecessarily overproduced, and c) they're setting precedents for more of the same in the hobby.
If other people want to buy and love them that's great and I'll play their copies. But I don't understand why people are chastised for being against buying them when we have reasons that are at least as valid as those who buy into them. Or why we're called anti-KS because we don't fall in line and back every popular project.

This has been my argument for years now. I'll definitely admit it's selfish. I can't justify spending north of $100 on a single board game, and I hate when something like Cthulhu Wars comes out that I want to play, but that's priced higher than I'll spend entirely because of a bunch of plastic bits that I don't particularly want, and that don't actually impact the gameplay. I'd love a $50-70 version that's all cardboard, but that's obviously not happening.

It's not Kickstarter's fault, and it's honestly not even the fault of the board game producers. There's a market out there that's willing to throw money at these over-produced minis-heavy things sight unseen, so it makes sense for producers to capitalize on that. But I can't help but think that the combined weight of all these triple-figure Kickstarter editions have contributed to the rise in the general cost of games over the last few years.

Chaz wrote:

ChristopherMD wrote: Remember when Cthulhu Wars minis were considered insanely huge? Having that box on my shelf honestly makes me wish they were smaller or tokens now. Price would be cheaper, box size more reasonable, and pieces would fit on the map better. I don't want components-first games anymore as I feel they aren't worth the cost in money and space compared to other games on my shelf. So I do feel okay calling out these huge KS projects because a) I can't afford them, b) they're unnecessarily overproduced, and c) they're setting precedents for more of the same in the hobby.
If other people want to buy and love them that's great and I'll play their copies. But I don't understand why people are chastised for being against buying them when we have reasons that are at least as valid as those who buy into them. Or why we're called anti-KS because we don't fall in line and back every popular project.

This has been my argument for years now. I'll definitely admit it's selfish. I can't justify spending north of $100 on a single board game, and I hate when something like Cthulhu Wars comes out that I want to play, but that's priced higher than I'll spend entirely because of a bunch of plastic bits that I don't particularly want, and that don't actually impact the gameplay. I'd love a $50-70 version that's all cardboard, but that's obviously not happening.

It's not Kickstarter's fault, and it's honestly not even the fault of the board game producers. There's a market out there that's willing to throw money at these over-produced minis-heavy things sight unseen, so it makes sense for producers to capitalize on that. But I can't help but think that the combined weight of all these triple-figure Kickstarter editions have contributed to the rise in the general cost of games over the last few years.

It's not selfish, it's practical. You're all making the same point I made above -- publishers are overproducing games because there is a more lucrative market for it. Everyone is reveling in the bigness of them instead of the value.

It's fine, I don't blame publishers. To some extent it provides cover when the gameplay is shitty, because the Internet conversation focuses on the big box of stuff, and the primary sales window occurs far prior to the game being available for a review of how it plays. It's a safe space in the market to publish.

But from a customer's perspective it's impractical. Alas, we don't always buy with practicality in mind.

For shits and giggles, look up the exchange between Neil Gaiman and Matt (a friend who was working at game informer as senior editor) on Twitter from about,idk, at least 5 years ago about Neil selling tour tickets via kickstarter and how Matt didn't think it was a proper use of Kickstarter. Reminds me of this entire KS discussion and reminds me that this whole discussion isn't new.