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Why hate on the TT?

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17 Jun 2011 14:53 #98107 by SuperflyPete
Here's the deal:

If I spend 1000$ on boardgames in a year, I get variety.
If I spend 1000$ on Warhammer shit a year, I get one game. A really neat game, yes, but still, one game.

Case closed.

Anyone want to get into Ex Illis, let me know. I have a whole swath of this shit, still in the box on sprues, I'd love to dump on someone.

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17 Jun 2011 16:18 #98111 by MattFantastic
Two of my friends are WAY into 40k, like writing strategy articles and getting flown to cons level, so I get to nicely dodge a lot of the issues people have since if I feel like playing I can just tag along with them and be handed a beautifully painted army of whatever faction I feel like playing. I still think 40k rules are a little shot and would rather play something else, but the inertia of getting people to switch (and in the case of these two, it being a huge money maker for them) is too much to overcome.

Minis look awesome on the table when you've got the whole thing going on, but for my lifestyle takes-up-tons-of-time-and-money gaming I'm an RPG player to the core. Bonus points now thanks to really digging 4E that I get to do combats on pretty swanky looking terrain and maps with pretty good looking minis anyway.

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17 Jun 2011 16:25 #98112 by VonTush
Replied by VonTush on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
A lot of the gripes about mini games can be mitigated by picking the right system and the right people to game with. Loopholes, army min/maxing, painting and modeling grips can all be limited by the people you game with. Much like the people you game with can ruin an AT or Euro game by playing a different style than you're used to playing.

Cost can also be controlled by picking the right system. When cost is a consideration a Miniature Mill like Privateer Press or Games Workshop would be bad. There's plenty of other companies that focus on higher quality rules and lower model counts - Infinity and Malifaux to name a few.

Or the online home brew rule sets are always an option as well. I've seen a rule set that uses Hot Wheels and Matchbox cars to fight out car combat Mad Max style. With a dozen cars needed for two sides and cars running a $1.00 or so each, you can do miniature gaming for less than $20.

The problem though is the farther you get from those Miniature Mills the harder it is to find opponents. With a boardgame I can find opponents who want to game...With a miniature game I need to find opponents that want to play a specific game. That's the main reason why for me I've moved from miniature games to boardgames. I just need to maintain a circle of gamers and not a circle of say 40k Gamers or Warmachine Gamers.

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17 Jun 2011 19:42 - 17 Jun 2011 19:52 #98125 by SleightOfHand12

Ken B. wrote: Here's my resaons:


1. It's expensive
2. I can't paint worth shit
3. The imprecision in a game system that demands precision (i.e., the ruler) is maddening. "Did you bump him?" "No." "Ah, you're short a fraction of an inch." "No I'm not!" "You moved him too far!" "Nuh-uh!" "You didn't put him back down exactly as he was." Argggghhh


I'm really surprised that more people haven't given Monsterpocalypse a shake now that the game's switched to a non-collectible format. The Two-Player Battlebox contains everything that two players need to play, including maps, buildings, all the necessary accessories (dice, etc.) and two complete and fully playable faction armies,

1) at a price point of $35 online (or $50 MSRP.) That's a HELL of a deal, and at the very least it's significantly more game for less money than Assault on Black Reach (which I believe is still the current 40k intro box set.) And this is in addition to the upcoming DMZ expansion, which for $40 MSRP (we're guessing $30 online) you get a faction-specific box containing the rest of your faction's monsters, another bevy of units from Series 2-3, and a handful of faction-specific installations. If I hadn't gone crazy on Ebay and booster cases a couple years ago, this is DEFINITELY how I'd have wanted to get into the game.

2) It's pre-painted. Possibly the best pre-painted models I've ever seen.

[img size=Original]http://goldenboat.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/monpoc-game-photo.jpg[/img]

(Click for full size!)

And of course, my boy Gorghadra... :-)



3) It's played on a gridded map with no Line of Sight rules. No hairs' width sportsmanship-testing judgment calls necessary.

Point #3 rules Monsterpocalypse out as being a "true" tabletop miniatures game, it's still a goddamned great game with miniatures and I'd love to see more folks try it out.
Last edit: 17 Jun 2011 19:52 by SleightOfHand12.

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17 Jun 2011 21:03 #98131 by Ken B.
Replied by Ken B. on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
I'm weird in that I consider grid-based miniatures games to be a different beast. I know that technically they are not, but they aren't of the same "true" genre in my mind's eye, and I've heard enough miniatures purists sniffle and huff when talking about their "lesser" brethren.

I own Monsterpoc Voltron even though I've never played it. I'm a Voltron fan so they're just sort of decoration; I'll probably play it someday.

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17 Jun 2011 21:11 #98132 by Xlyce
Replied by Xlyce on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
I don't, I am just about to start playing in a Savage Worlds Gladiator game ( savagetimmy.blogspot.com/ )

[url=http://http://saskminigamer.blogspot.com/]Tim paints... alot.[/url], as you can tell by his miniatures game site.

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18 Jun 2011 18:56 - 18 Jun 2011 19:03 #98151 by Da Bid Dabid
I understand a lot of the issues that people have brought up in the thread and just want to re-iterate that a lot of the rules issues and "bad attitude" types are avoided when not playing the competitive/tournament scene. I also don't like that for a lot of people mini games = GW/Warhammer.

For some of you that have stated that the hobby has priced you out or don't like dealing with new editions and new books to buy, I can't recommend enough that you give some of the smaller companies or free rule sets a try. Honestly I was really into Warmachine when it came out and found that as the company has grown and adopted a more similar model to their largest competitor I find myself wishing they had just kept the game at its small skirmish level that it started with (haven't bought their figs or rules in a long time but doesn't keep me from enjoying it).

There are even great rules for playing solo games (All Things Zombie is great solo) out there and I find mini games seem to work better solo than board games do. A lot of the problems are avoided if the games are treated less like "lifetime" games and more like "hobby for a month to get my stuff to a fun level" games. While the negative parts of CCGs and TT games can be similar, the obsession with keeping up with the newest, latest, and greatest is not at all required to enjoy the games. My friends and I have all kept one deck of Magic cards from when we played in high school. Once and a while we bust em out and have at it and its a great game and a fun time, I don't see why it doesn't work with minis as well.

@ Jeff: I would kill to play in a dedicated Mordheim campaign. Basically all of GW's games that work with leveling up and management meta-game are exactly the type of games I want to play, bashing huge painted armies is fun and all but skirmish games are where its really at. Hopefully I can convert some of the Warhammer 40k guys into a group a like that, the jump to Necromunda doesn't seem like too much to ask.
Last edit: 18 Jun 2011 19:03 by Da Bid Dabid.

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19 Jun 2011 16:51 - 19 Jun 2011 16:53 #98183 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
Yeah, Da Bid Dabid is right. If you're thinking minis = Warhammer/warmachine I can see the intimidation with time and money. I stick to the GW specialist range (Mordheim, Necromunda, BloodBowl, etc) All have free rulesets online and only require @10-15 models which can be had cheap. Mantic puts out a great budget fantasy line (10 models @ $15 MSRP). There are also lots of newer free rulesets as well. Mongoose has recently released their Judge Dread rules for free, and they have some neat looking 2000AD models. Again, no need for a lot of models here or can proxy others (Heroscape minis come to mind). Finally, playing the skirmish level games makes it easy to convert your board-gaming friends. Low buy-in.

Da Bid, it's easy to get your 40K friends into Necro. I did this all the time after college. It's not perfect, but we played:

Imperial guard = orlock
orks = goliath
tau = van saar
eldar flavors = escher
necrons = daleque (sp?)
witch/demon hunters = redemptionists
chaos/space marines = spyrers

Sure the stats aren't true to their 40k stat-lines, but take some liberties and use the old imagination and these worked fine without the need for crazy conversion work. Lots of fun running a handful of 'tau' in the hive.

I have in interest in playing napoleonics, but I can't be bothered to try and get all the regiment colors and insignias right. Fantasy/sci-fi is so much easier because I can go with whatever colors I have on hand. No stress trying to recreate anything.
Last edit: 19 Jun 2011 16:53 by Mr. White.

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19 Jun 2011 19:34 #98199 by jur
Replied by jur on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
Just like role playing, miniatures games can give you the ultimate experience once you get into campaigns. When a battle starts having effects on your next game, you cross a corner.

For the mini gamer, the preparation: researching the period, arranging the units, painting them, building up from a few units to an army, is as much part of the experience as the actual playing.

That takes time and money. As said above, money doesn't have to be an issue, once you look for cheaper companies and ebay sales. Good rulesets are available at reasonable prices or even free.

The biggest problem in TT wargaming these days is that most rulesets are too complex, covering every historical eventuality. The hybrid revolution, bringing together classic Ameritrash and German style mechanics, hasn't happened to TT wargaming yet.

Lone paragon is De Bellis Antiquitatis, a set with incredible potential. If they had developed that into period specific sets, that would have made the game immortal. However, they fell into the complexity=historical accuracy trap and lost everything in DBM. Now look at Fields of Glory. *shakes head in disbelief*

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19 Jun 2011 20:49 #98203 by Dogmatix
Replied by Dogmatix on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?

Sagrilarus wrote:

MattDP wrote: First GW are not a very user-friendly company. I don't like paying their ridiculous prices . . .


If you're going to do tabletop I'd recommend getting off of a single-provider game and ruleset. I realize most here find Ancients a less-than-gripping theme, but if you're willing to play with War Elephants instead of Dreadnaughts you have a lot of choice and the pieces mix and match easily as long as your bases match.

MattDP wrote: Second I've always been irritated by the way in which the majority of miniatures gamers treat painting and modelling as more important than the game.


Go 15mm. Cheaper and no one can really paint them with all that much detail anyway. I suppose at that point you could just go with a wargame though.

MattDP wrote: Third - and this is kind of an extension of the above - I grew tired of the endless exploitable holes in mini gaming systems.


Ancients tend to have this happen less, because the battles are sims and the rulesets have been around for years. I suppose there's a turd in every group though. I personally like the free-form of measure-and-move but I got to watch a 25yo ass get up in the face of my 9yo boy over a placement issue. You need to find a reasonable set of players just like in any other social event.

Ancients (and Napoleonics and ECW/ACW) tend to attract men instead of boys and some of the issues you mention wane. But if you don't like the theme I suppose none of this matters.

S.


Eons ago, I gamed 15MM Ancients off and on for about 5 years; had a lot of fun with it but it was never a passion. WWIII "Fulda Gap" gaming, on the other hand, consumed a great deal of my time and money. Sadly, the end of the Cold War just killed that hobby--once everyone realized that Soviet equipment would have lasted all of 9 minutes in the field against hordes of M1s--or even M60A3s--it was hard to manage a ruleset. Shame though, as I just loved it.

My experience with Napoleonics, on the other hand, was that the scene was, if anything, far worse than anything the worst WH40K asshats could contrive. I tried to give it a go at GenCon since Milwaukee (1) hosted the con and (2) had a thriving Nappy miniatures scene. After having 3 different guys, each unpacking thousands upon thousands of 6- and 15MM figures, bitch that the units I was using (which weren't mine--and I was all of 15 years old looking for a friendly game) were the wrong shade of blue, I decided that it just wasn't going to be a good day for me to play. I opted to watch and found they were even more ridiculous about table-bumping and arguments over fractions of an inch for ranges. They were the most anal retentive, least easygoing group of cocksuckers I'd ever met. It had nothing to do with the "tourney scene" since the GenCon games in question were essentially "friendlies"--no prizes, points, or judging; just basically set-up and play during a time slot.

Had the same experience multiple times at the local game shop (called "Napoleon's," so you can guess the owner's particular passion--though I will say, he [Fritz I believe was his name] was an absolute gem of a guy and great to play any game at all with; he was the one that turned me on to Squad Leader when I was 16--cut me a break on the price too]. When I moved to DC, I found the Napoleonics crowd to actually be even more anal than the GenCon guys. I've come to believe that Nappy fanatics are the most maniacal of lifestyle gamers; unfair perhaps...

Flames of War is probably the biggest thing on the "old guy" scene around here these days; unfortunately, the local groups seem to be just chock full of the sort of Wehrmacht hardware fetishists that I find kind of tough to be around for long periods of time. I just don't need a 20 minute monologue on the virtues of the PzKw V road wheels in my gaming life. ;)

Personally, I would love to play skirmish-sized games--original Warmachine, Necromunda, etc.--but I don't have friends interested in investing in minis and the local groups all seem to favor bigger games. One local shop does have a thriving Warmachine scene, but the demographic trends a little too young for me. I don't like being the only guy at a table old enough to have a beer ;)

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19 Jun 2011 22:23 #98205 by evilgit
Replied by evilgit on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?
Hah! I went to high school in the Fulda Gap and I remember my old man, who was in the army, had several war board games about it. Air Cav and Nato. They were too complex for me at the time but I did think it was cool to see my little podunk village on the maps.

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20 Jun 2011 03:35 #98224 by metalface13
Replied by metalface13 on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?

Jeff White wrote: My group is a couple of weeks into a Mordheim campaign and we're having a blast. We've got Reiklanders and Middenhiemers (lap dogs of Ulric, the bastards are) trying to drag a cache of wyrdstone out of Mordheim, but the undead and skaven have secured it from us and are barreling on their way toward a victory. We're planning a longer campaign after this one as this short one is serving to bring old players up to speed and introduce the game to a few new guys.

Yes, these are lifestyle games. One of the guys in the group spent a weekend making a table for us to play on. Not a board. Not a piece of terrain. A table. Of course, we've built lots of terrain painted, our warbands, etc. It all looks fantastic in play. And we're playing this same game for consecutive weeks in a row. Seeing warbands rise and fall as well as getting a system down over multiple weeks is a breath of fresh air over the 'play it and leave it' nature of boardgames.

Not to say one is better than the other, but they are far different in scope. Likely why no one could speak to Sag's question about Dystopian Wars. Usually minis players are vested into one or two games/systems. No way do I have time to build and paint stuff for Mordheim as well as Dystopian Wars/Warmachine/etc. Only time and money for one. Boardgames, the barrier of entry is so much lower so we get a higher number of players to talk about them. What would be the point of discussing the nuances of Mordheim if no one here is playing it?

Boardgames, videogames, movies, music...all easy to consume and talk about. Minis games...need to go find others that have committed to the investment.


Oh man you guys are playing Mordheim? I've always wanted to play that game! I loved Necromunda.

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20 Jun 2011 03:58 #98225 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?

metalface13 wrote:
Oh man you guys are playing Mordheim? I've always wanted to play that game! I loved Necromunda.


It's going great so interest in another campaign in a few months is very high. I'll ping you beforehand.

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20 Jun 2011 05:31 #98228 by metalface13
Replied by metalface13 on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?

Jeff White wrote:

metalface13 wrote:
Oh man you guys are playing Mordheim? I've always wanted to play that game! I loved Necromunda.


It's going great so interest in another campaign in a few months is very high. I'll ping you beforehand.


Man, now I have Necromunda and Mordheim on the brain. You guys should play somewhere on campus though. We got rear-ended a couple of weeks ago and the car got totaled, so we're down to just one car. :(

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20 Jun 2011 05:56 #98229 by Mr. White
Replied by Mr. White on topic Re: Why hate on the TT?

metalface13 wrote:

Jeff White wrote:

metalface13 wrote:
Oh man you guys are playing Mordheim? I've always wanted to play that game! I loved Necromunda.


It's going great so interest in another campaign in a few months is very high. I'll ping you beforehand.


Man, now I have Necromunda and Mordheim on the brain. You guys should play somewhere on campus though. We got rear-ended a couple of weeks ago and the car got totaled, so we're down to just one car. :(



Ouch, sorry to hear about the car. I hope everyone is alright.

3/4s of the group live in Kyle, plus we don't really want to haul a table plus terrain in to downtown Austin every week. :) However, we do have a guy that drives in from pretty much Round Rock. We could probably arrange a carpool or something.

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