Trashdome - DungeonQuest VS Descent: JitD

Michael Barnes wrote:

Wow, the generation gap thing comes up again...so we've got a bunch of middle-agers going through their mid-life crisis and buying the new Corvette (DESCENT) in a vain attempt to stay young forever versus genuinely youthful, young, and sexy people who acknowledge that DUNGEONQUEST is timeless and always great because it always has been.

I think you have that backwards.

The irony of all of this is that Eurogamers tend to _love_ DESCENT. Archduke Alan Moon himself is a huge advocate of the game. Why? Because it really is pretty analytical and it's all about efficiency. Don't kid yourself into thinking that it's this grand, epic quest narrative...it just isn't. It's about kibbutzing and figuring out the most efficient way to clear a room or progress to the next one. Most games of it wind up with the discussions boiling down to "OK, you do this because you're best at it, I'll do this because I'm best at it, and you do that because you're best at it. Agreed?" Just because there's die rolls and a player throwing endless monsters at you doesn't change the facts here.

It seems like another case of folks being blinded by the plastic.

Vote: Dungeons & Dragons.

D&D is the sun, and both DungeonQuest and Descent are just shallow puddles reflecting a bit of that sunlight. Not that I play D&D anymore.

Okay, let's have this arguing become productive and post some advice on my Descent advice post!

fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_kune...id=10&id=45964#45964

Thanks

(witholding vote for now...)

Vote: DungeonQuest

Michael Barnes wrote:

The irony of all of this is that Eurogamers tend to _love_ DESCENT. Archduke Alan Moon himself is a huge advocate of the game. Why? Because it really is pretty analytical and it's all about efficiency. Don't kid yourself into thinking that it's this grand, epic quest narrative...it just isn't. It's about kibbutzing and figuring out the most efficient way to clear a room or progress to the next one. Most games of it wind up with the discussions boiling down to "OK, you do this because you're best at it, I'll do this because I'm best at it, and you do that because you're best at it. Agreed?" Just because there's die rolls and a player throwing endless monsters at you doesn't change the facts here.

It seems like another case of folks being blinded by the plastic.

You're absolutely right. We should all just play games were we flip cards over to see what happens. Screw war games, who needs to figure out the best way to eliminate the enemy and preserve your troops. Screw CCGs where you need to efficiently play your cards, too.

Michael Barnes wrote:

Wow, the generation gap thing comes up again...so we've got a bunch of middle-agers going through their mid-life crisis and buying the new Corvette (DESCENT) in a vain attempt to stay young forever versus genuinely youthful, young, and sexy people who acknowledge that DUNGEONQUEST is timeless and always great because it always has been.

People advocating for DUNGEONQUEST are the crotchety old farts who complain that nothing is ever as good as it was back when they were young. "Why can't the damn kids these days appreciate a classic? Plus they can't comb their hair and they just listen to noise -- why can't they just relax with some nice young men like Barry Manilow or Chuck Mangione? If only those stupid young'uns understood how great things used to be. Why won't anyone bring it back into print, I wonder? The world scares me, change scares me, being out of adult undergarments scares me, and GET OFF MY LAWN!"

"I used to be 'with it' but then they changed what 'it' was, now what 'it' is is weird and scary"- Grampa Simpson

Fortunately, that's not the case here. DUNGEONQUEST fans, I'd suspect, are more likely to be into really awesome, back to basics rock n' roll. The typical DESCENT fan is probably more into overly elaborate bullshit like Rush. You know, 20 minute songs with a lot of noodling and wankerism.

DO NOT GET ME WRONG. I love DESCENT, but the #1 complaint, that the pacing is fucked up, is completely the case. It really does take five hours to kill four skeletons and get to the next room. It's sooooo slow. There's no immediacy or excitement at all, it's kind of like watching a football game- endless minutes of milling around and then ten seconds of meaningful action.

There really isn't any way to speed it up, either...you either deal with it, or don't play it.

JonJacob wrote:

Who's voting for the 20 year old game here? Dungeonquest wasn't even good when I was a kid.

Man, Dungeonquest was awesome when I was a kid. A lot of my neighborhood buddies were a couple years younger and didn't have the patience for my favorite games like GURPS, but they loved Dungeonquest. When playing outside we'd sometimes "play Dungeonquest". James always wanted to be Sir Rohan and I'd tell him he just fell into a bottomless pit cause he was too clumsy, meanwhile I, Ulv Grimhand, robbed the dragon.

Vote: Descent. I rolled a d-20 to arrive at that decision but it's got lots of charisma and comeliness, y'know.

Christ there is some dumb shit in this thread.

Firstly am I the only person here who finds it much easier to play games as an adult than I did as a kid? Firstly I have the net to find other gamers and I have a car to get me to games around town. This "I don't have time" is fucking bullshit, try getting your ass off the Xbox and you will.

Secondly aren't the people that complain "it takes 4 hours to kill 5 skeletons!" the same people who complain monsters go down in one hit? How in the hell can it take you 4 hours to clear a room of skeletons? You rolling the dice with your nose?

Finally, Dungeon Quest was reprinted. It's called Tomb.

Mr Skeletor wrote:

Finally, Dungeon Quest was reprinted. It's called Tomb.

Having played neither..this makes me vote Descent

Ah, the old "Cultists of the Old" chestnut.

You know, I wonder where all you Arkham Horror-worshipping motherfuckers would be without all those Cultists of the Old who created enough of an awareness and demand for the game to be re-printed? While you're at it, just replace AH with Fury of Dracula, Cosmic Encounter, Talisman, Warrior Knights, or hell, just about 75% of FFGs worthwhile titles and ask yourselves the same question.

And why stop with FFG? What about the new Space Hulk, Tales of the Arabian Nights, Titan, or any of the other slew of reissues of old games that you guys are still playing and enjoying decades after they were designed.

And let's not even get started on all those new games that pretty much owe their very existence to all those old designs from which they were derived. If it weren't for HeroQuest, there'd be no Descent, if not for Magic Realm, there'd be no Runebound or MEQ, and so on and so forth.

From where I'm sitting, "Cultist of the Old" seems like a fairly honorable distinction. So in a few years, when you guys are playing the new Dune and Borderlands games, and realize how awesome they are, you'll know who to thank.

Fucking kids...

mjl1783 wrote:

Ah, the old "Cultists of the Old" chestnut.


From where I'm sitting, "Cultist of the Old" seems like a fairly honorable distinction. So in a few years, when you guys are playing the new Dune and Borderlands games, and realize how awesome they are, you'll know who to thank.

Fucking kids...

I don't know how it's an old chestnut... I think it's my own creation...

I don't play chainmail either, I play 4th edition... having played since 82 I know the new editions are better. Designers LEARN... believe it or not.

Without Heroquest there would be no Descent.. sure, and heroquest plus all of it's expansions sit unplayed on my shelf.. .no one wants to play them anymore because of Descent. The old Arkham is not as good as the new one. I'd never break out old Arkham now, why bother. We play Dune a little bit, but we all prefer TI3. Cosmic, Borderlands... I'd rather play Chaos in the Old World, Magic Realm... uh, I'd rather not play it at all. Tales of Arabian Knights.. same thing (having not played MEQ I won't say the obvious... but I'm pretty sure I'd rather play that).

The problem with the cult of the old is that they can't appreciate how great some of the new games actually are, their nostalgia has blinded them. If I ever run in to Christopher Lloyd driving over 80 I'll ask you guys for some game advice.. otherwise, stand aside man. Not all of those old games get played any more... because they just are not as good as you remember.

Descent is.

Vote Descent!

Michael Barnes wrote:

DUNGEONQUEST fans, I'd suspect, are more likely to be into really awesome, back to basics rock n' roll. The typical DESCENT fan is probably more into overly elaborate bullshit like Rush. You know, 20 minute songs with a lot of noodling and wankerism.

I'm liking the music analogy. But Barnes is off here, as is usual with all of his opinions about music. (HEYO!) The closer comparison here is that DUNGEONQUEST is like that one band that was kinda fresh and exciting back in 1972, but now consists of a bunch of old balding fat guys still pretending they're 19 but reduced to playing county fairs and Indian Native American casinos. Then Bob tries to jump around on stage, pulls a hamstring after three seconds, and they find out they lost their next gig to a Kenny Rogers cover band.

DESCENT is like a modern prog metal band in every way, including and especially the bad ones. Dumb fantasy theme? Check. Unoriginal? Mostly. I'll even give you overlong and pretentious. But they've got great production, enough fresh ideas to keep the critics happy, and they put on a great show more often than not.