What MOVIE(s) have you been....seeing? watching?

The sequel officially got announced today: www.polygon.com/22739982/dune-2-release-date-announcement

Edit: I just saw Jason posted about this earlier!

jason10mm wrote: He drinks the water of life and becomes a living god, what's confusing about that?

That's been one of my core critiques of Dune from the very beginning: "Already massively wealthy and powerful guy becomes... even more massively powerful guy?" This is a hero's journey how? Because it's not, really. It's just a way for Herbert to provide a central focus and a nominal protagonist to this universe he created. It's an exercise in world-building, not a novel. Which is fine. Mezike is absolutely right. It's Lord of the Rings in SF form. It's a plot-driven story, not a character-driven one, even if stuff does happen to the characters. Like I've said before, there's no actual character development in Dune that isn't directly driven by the plot. As you say, Paul is destined to become the KH so his choices, essentially, are not his own, which makes him not really relatable as a character, since the rest of us are stuck with this whole "free will" business. But it also doesn't mean it can't be entertaining. It's just a lesser form, to me.

Jackwraith wrote: It's a plot-driven story, not a character-driven one, even if stuff does happen to the characters. Like I've said before, there's no actual character development in Dune that isn't directly driven by the plot. As you say, Paul is destined to become the KH so his choices, essentially, are not his own, which makes him not really relatable as a character, since the rest of us are stuck with this whole "free will" business. But it also doesn't mean it can't be entertaining. It's just a lesser form, to me.

This is a crucial point. I was looking at reviews today, both the new movie and the 1984 movie, because I frankly lack objectivity after reading the first three books. The most common complaint about the 1984 movie is that the viewers can't follow the story unless they read the book. The most common complaint about the new Dune is that the characters lack personality. But that is a problem that goes right to the heart of the original books, which are plot-driven instead of character-driven. And even the best director would be hard-pressed to get around that problem because Paul is the main character and his prescience deprives him of free will.

Jackwraith wrote:

jason10mm wrote: He drinks the water of life and becomes a living god, what's confusing about that?

That's been one of my core critiques of Dune from the very beginning: "Already massively wealthy and powerful guy becomes... even more massively powerful guy?" This is a hero's journey how? Because it's not, really. It's just a way for Herbert to provide a central focus and a nominal protagonist to this universe he created. It's an exercise in world-building, not a novel. Which is fine. Mezike is absolutely right. It's Lord of the Rings in SF form. It's a plot-driven story, not a character-driven one, even if stuff does happen to the characters. Like I've said before, there's no actual character development in Dune that isn't directly driven by the plot. As you say, Paul is destined to become the KH so his choices, essentially, are not his own, which makes him not really relatable as a character, since the rest of us are stuck with this whole "free will" business. But it also doesn't mean it can't be entertaining. It's just a lesser form, to me.

So if we believe in determinism Dune is more relevant? That's an interesting thought.

Should a director try to tell a better story than the book it is based upon? Or is it more important to render a faithful interpretation of the book?

IIRC, in the novel Paul sees all possible futures trying to find one where he doesn't become the KH, and fails. So not pure determinism, but maybe influenced by the sufi school of islam where choosing right leads to the wills of a seeker and god to mingle into one.

I am a little relieved it isn't yet another heroes' journey. As mentioned above, that's not the story. Plus that story would have to work hard to not be the next Avatar/White Man's Burden in a line that's too long already.

charlest wrote: So if we believe in determinism Dune is more relevant? That's an interesting thought.

I wouldn't immediately leap to that, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility. We are talking about entertainment, so it may not be a question of what feels better on an intrinsic level to the viewer/reader and instead just what seems cool at the time. It's easy to read Dune and just accept the fact that this is the way things are in the same way that many Christians read the Bible and feel comfort in the idea that this is divine influence set to paper. Dune isn't that far away from another Christ-like story (just like Lord of the Rings) in that Paul is set to be this savior and has to come to grips with it in the same way that Jesus does in parts of the New Testament. In both cases, the more interesting story may have been if they realized that this was their destiny and instead just said: "Nah. I'm not doing that." At that point, the central conflict in the story is not how the inevitable destiny plays out but whether one can reject it and act apart (again, the whole "free will" conundrum.)

Nodens raises a great point about Sufism and their beliefs that focus on closer contact with the divine by doing the right thing independently, rather than following a prescribed law or instruction from a burning bush. Herbert did draw from cultures with close ties to Islam, so that could have been part of his thinking with regards to Paul.

Dune is a bit of the journey from boy to man, so Paul DOES grow. But this isn't a farmboy to hero tale, Paul has been carefully groomed for his responsibilities just like nobility/landed gentry have done for generations. GRRM riffs on this a lot with Jon Snow in GoT, his noble upbringing giving him an almost innate advantage in leading the Night's Watch. In Dune2021 Paul displays a lot more reluctance/reservations about his place, while in Dune1984 he seems a lot more confident, at least until shit goes sideways. Lynch does craft a growth arc for him, it matures with his crying "The sleeper has AWAKENED!" at the skies as he realizes he has fulfilled his fathers greatest hopes.

American audiences don't like "just anyone" getting to be in charge. We still cling to that inherited value concept very closely. The new Star Wars is a good example. Rey can't just be some orphan, she has to be "special". Nor can she just pick up a lightsaber and wield the force straight from genetic (midichlorian?) skill (well, folks will decry her as a "Mary Sue" if she does). We want heroes to go through a crucible and experience change. Paul in Dune1984 does this. I'm sure Paul in Dune pt2 will as well. His metamorphosis to Maud'dib will, I'm sure, take up a lot of run time versus the music montage of Dune1984.

I'm far from a Dune or Herbert scholar (I think I read the first three books many years ago, but only the first again earlier this year), but I thought part of the point was that Paul WASN'T meant to be the savior?

Jessica screwed up the BG's plan by having a boy. If she had had a girl, she would've been mated with one of the Harkonnens and the son of THAT pairing would've been the QH.

So, Paul doesn't want to lead House Atreides, but is forced to by birth (father). He doesn't want to be QH, but is forced to by birth (mother). He doesn't want to be the Fremen's Mahdi, but is forced to in order to survive (he and his mom take advantage of the myths planted by the BG).

His "arc" is navigating all of these roles that are forced upon him. His visions only show him a holy war and death and destruction sweeping across the universe. I always thought that he was trying to thread the needle to get what he wanted without destroying the universe, and only he could know if he succeeded or failed (kinda like Dr. Strange's vision in Avengers Infinity War).

From what I recall he was a super mentat which made him close enough to what the BG wanted to become Kwisatz Haderach. The previous closest person was the Emperor's mentat.

Gregarius wrote: I'm far from a Dune or Herbert scholar (I think I read the first three books many years ago, but only the first again earlier this year), but I thought part of the point was that Paul WASN'T meant to be the savior?

Jessica screwed up the BG's plan by having a boy. If she had had a girl, she would've been mated with one of the Harkonnens and the son of THAT pairing would've been the QH.

So, Paul doesn't want to lead House Atreides, but is forced to by birth (father). He doesn't want to be QH, but is forced to by birth (mother). He doesn't want to be the Fremen's Mahdi, but is forced to in order to survive (he and his mom take advantage of the myths planted by the BG).

His "arc" is navigating all of these roles that are forced upon him. His visions only show him a holy war and death and destruction sweeping across the universe. I always thought that he was trying to thread the needle to get what he wanted without destroying the universe, and only he could know if he succeeded or failed (kinda like Dr. Strange's vision in Avengers Infinity War).

I think I also read the first three books only, and it was also many years ago (so hello, fellow non-scholar!) but my takeaway from the books is that “saviors” suck, “chosen ones” aren’t, and “messiahs” lead only to death, destruction, misery, and suffering. So for better or worse (mostly the latter) any solutions to our problems have to be done by messy, flawed, and inefficient normal schlubs like you and me. Anyone claiming to be the prophesied one, or the one who can solve all your problems, is to be strenuously ostracized.

sornars wrote: The sequel officially got announced today: www.polygon.com/22739982/dune-2-release-date-announcement

Dune 2

2UNE

Kmann wrote:

sornars wrote: The sequel officially got announced today: www.polygon.com/22739982/dune-2-release-date-announcement

Dune 2

2UNE

That was bad, and you should feel bad.

I never read God-Emperor of Dune because a couple of friends repeatedly warned me about it. With all this talk of the new movie kicking off a franchise, does anybody really expect to see God-Emperor of Dune get translated into a movie?

It's funny that we have so many different readings on Paul my own understanding was that the KH was intended to be an individual who could see all possible futures and to be able to recall all past ancestors in order to draw upon their knowledge, skill and counsel; using this godlike power they would steer Humanity into a safe and prosperous future. Paul does indeed develop the prescience to see all futures but in all but one path he sees the eventual destruction of the species. Unwilling to pay the high cost of following that single "golden path" he disbelieves in his power and eschews the opportunity to become the KH, instead disappearing into the desert to later return as a prophet of doom advocating the regression of civilisation. His children however are both born with full prescience and do not shy away from the Golden Path, with lots of spoilery results. There is a moment toward the end of Children of Dune where Paul and Leto have a conversation about the Golden Path, Paul's unwillingness to pay the cost of becoming the KH and his acceptance of Leto's decision as the only way to ensure the salvation of Humanity. Paul's sister is of course also born with prescience and this develops into an entire thread of it's own.

I quite enjoyed God Emperor as it opens up a huge amount of plot that really puts the earlier books into a more mature focus and sets up a far grander science fiction epic than yet another 'Chosen One saves us all' affair. I think the main reason why people dislike it is because it changes the nature of the story away from this simple narrative. The downside is that it is really ponderous and opaque and is an often tiresome read as a result, a quality that appears to become ever more magnified in the following books. In answer to Shellhead's question, no I do not see it becoming a movie because it is a huge book that is something like 90% very slow exposition. At the very least I expect Villeneuve will have long exited the project by then and it'll be a ropey re-imagining by that point.

Anyone interested in delving deeper into Dune would do well to check out Quinn's Ideas on YouTube, he has made some excellent summaries on the cycle: